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"...Jan Ulrich-like cadence..."
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RChung
Jul 6, 08 12:06
Post #26 of 105 (2559 views)
Re: "...Jan Ulrich-like cadence..." [Jimtraci]
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I agree that the science says that if you make gains on both sides of the equation you get more power. However, where does the science say that the best way to do that is to train pedal force and pedal speed separately?
They're two separate things, aren't they?
Should you simply go out and ride at max sustainable power, at your optimum cadence, on each and every ride?
Hmmm. Does your response mean you don't know where the science says that? It's okay if that's what you mean -- I was just wondering since you invoked the science. And I don't think the science says much at all about training at one's "optimum" cadence, though if you know of something please let me know.
Jimtraci
Jul 6, 08 14:00
Post #27 of 105 (2477 views)
Re: "...Jan Ulrich-like cadence..." [RChung]
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I agree that the science says that if you make gains on both sides of the equation you get more power. However, where does the science say that the best way to do that is to train pedal force and pedal speed separately?
They're two separate things, aren't they?
Should you simply go out and ride at max sustainable power, at your optimum cadence, on each and every ride?
Hmmm. Does your response mean you don't know where the science says that? It's okay if that's what you mean -- I was just wondering since you invoked the science. And I don't think the science says much at all about training at one's "optimum" cadence, though if you know of something please let me know.
I mentioned science, but I don't think I invoked it:) And I never said training pedal force separately is the "best" way to improve power - it's "a great way."
My responses are based on information gathered (personally told to me, or read) by scientists I know and/or trust- but I had to use spell-check to confirm the proper spelling of science, as science is not my forte (which is why I rely on what others have taught me). So I'm sorry - I have no paper or study to refer you to, but they're out there, I promise (check the internet - look for "big gear intervals" or "muscle tension intervals").
Let me try to simplify what I meant when asking you the above, copied questions: It's hard (if not impossible) to pedal at 50 rpm and 100 rpm at the same time;)
Specificity is paramount. But, for example, won't hill repeats also help your flat road riding (please say yes)?
Not that you asked, but here are a couple of top secret bike workouts for you (please don't tell anyone about them - especially Rappstar, he's fast enough) that are "guaranteed" to help you improve your cycling power, both uphill AND on the flats (even though neither workout exclusively addresses power).
W/O 1: 3x10' uphill at tempo watts (LT watts, if you're "scientific"), 60 rpm (less rpm if you're experienced, more if you're not), 5-10' recovery (normal rpm). (Addresses force ... separately)
W/O 2: 30'-60' uphill at tempo watts, alternating 3' using 100 or > rpm and 3' using 50-70 rpm (less if you're experienced, more if you're not), (addresses force and agility ((and LT)) ... together)
Since I'm not a scientist, and I don't care to provide links to published papers (actually, I don't even know how to do that), I guess my statements are simply my opinions. And as my father says, "Opinions are like a**holes - everybody has one." Please consider this, when evaluating the above workouts and comments.
JR
Rappstar
Jul 6, 08 14:10
Post #28 of 105 (2460 views)
Re: "...Jan Ulrich-like cadence..." [Jimtraci]
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I'd be curious if you've read Dr. Coggan's article on "big gear" work:
http://home.earthlink.net/
~acoggan/setraining/
If not, and if you have the time, I'd be intrigued to hear a response to what he wrote there.
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aerobike
Jul 6, 08 14:24
Post #29 of 105 (2441 views)
Re: "...Jan Ulrich-like cadence..." [Rappstar]
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Big gear riding is an absolute waste of time.
Power = force x velocity. Max gains will not come if one does not work both sides of this equation.
I've seen the best spend a fair amount of time climbing Mt. Lemmon at a medium effort in the 53x12 (40-60 rpm).
7 TdF GC victories = time well spent.
JR
Your example doesn't add up. Lance won 7 TdF GC titles when he stopped grinding and switched to high-cadence (high-power) output. You never read about Ferrari (or Carmichael) having Lance do big-gear work. Now, you know Lance better than any of us, so if you say he did big gear work, I'd be tempted to believe you. But the science is not there to support it.
Some of the best Belgian riders don't shower before TT's (because their legs will absorb water), don't sleep with houseplants in the room (because they steal oxygen), and don't shave close to big races (because it takes energy to regrow hair). My point being, just because the "best" do something, it doesn't mean one ought to. Those same guys grinding up mount lemmon would probably have gotten a lot more out of the workout had they done it at 10% more power, and 30-40% more cadence.
Lance did do big gear work. He did muscle tensions around 55-65 rpm and Tempo rides from 75-85.
RChung
Jul 6, 08 14:58
Post #30 of 105 (2393 views)
Re: "...Jan Ulrich-like cadence..." [aerobike]
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Lance did do big gear work. He did muscle tensions around 55-65 rpm and Tempo rides from 75-85.
Hmmm. Looks like Lance had Ullrich-like cadence.
Frank Day
Jul 6, 08 16:00
Post #31 of 105 (2339 views)
Re: "...Jan Ulrich-like cadence..." [RChung]
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Big gear work is not a waste of time and is a great way to increase the force one is able to apply to the pedals. Assuming the other side of the power equation stays the same, more force equals more power. If you make gains on both sides of the equation ... more power.
It doesn't get any simpler than that, and the science is there to back it up.
I agree that the science says that if you make gains on both sides of the equation you get more power. However, where does the science say that the best way to do that is to train pedal force and pedal speed separately?
Where does the science say almost anything about the best way to train for cycling, or running, or almost anything else? Show me a study that compares just two cycling training methods that goes on for any length of time, let alone all the variations available out there. The science is pretty sparse here. There is some science, but it is more theoretical lab stuff and then we are forced to do the "art" thing and put it together.
Frank, Inventor of PowerCranks
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Jimtraci
Jul 6, 08 16:40
Post #32 of 105 (2293 views)
Re: "...Jan Ulrich-like cadence..." [Rappstar]
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I'd be curious if you've read Dr. Coggan's article on "big gear" work:
http://home.earthlink.net/~acoggan/setraining/
If not, and if you have the time, I'd be intrigued to hear a response to what he wrote there.
Dr. Coggan is a smart man, and I place stock in a lot of what he says. With regard to the above link - I'd want more info on his "no gripping" method. He should grip. Everyone I know gripped.
I'm just saying, Jordan, that the guys I sometimes trained with incorporated big gear work at intervals of different lengths. In fact it was a significant part of certain phases of training. These athletes are relying on information given to them by others who are possibly just as smart as Dr. Coggan and who have reams of data on a large number of athletes. They are constantly trying all training techniques on these athletes and documenting the results. This may be anecdotal to some, but it's empirical enough for me.
Please consider that I understand pedaling agility and pedaling efficiency to be the most important parts of cycling success. I'm just saying that I've watched many of the best devote time to various types of big gear work, to the benefit of agility and pedaling efficiency - and pedaling force, in my opinion. Therefore I do not feel that big gear work is an absolute waste of time.
Give it a shot. Based on Dr. Coggan's paper, as long as you don't pop a tendon or ligament, you don't really have anything to lose, right?
JR
RChung
Jul 6, 08 17:50
Post #33 of 105 (2221 views)
Re: "...Jan Ulrich-like cadence..." [Jimtraci]
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Give it a shot. Based on Dr. Coggan's paper, as long as you don't pop a tendon or ligament, you don't really have anything to lose, right?
Opportunity cost.
Alfalfameister
Jul 6, 08 18:02
Post #34 of 105 (2201 views)
Re: "...Jan Ulrich-like cadence..." [GO]
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Big gear riding during training is what they do. It doesn't necessarily mean they do that when RACING.
When racing, they go at their most comfortable cadence (optimum power). When training, sometimes, when going uphill, I've seen these guys/gals (coach Sutton's squad), they shift to their big gear during a climb. They will never do that in a race, but training is another matter altogether.
Of course, what we see on TV are always the races, never the training.
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dano
Jul 6, 08 18:29
Post #35 of 105 (2154 views)
Re: "...Jan Ulrich-like cadence..." [GO]
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According to Dr. Ferrari the reason for switching Armstrong to the higher cadence was:
The higher cadence puts the stress into the heart and not so much on the large leg muscles which fatigue much quicker.
tegra
Jul 6, 08 18:44
Post #36 of 105 (2120 views)
Re: "...Jan Ulrich-like cadence..." [GO]
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der kaiser's choice of pushing a monster gear created earthquakes and would have broken the femurs of lesser men
good to see that chrissie wellington has developed a similar technique. perhaps the earthquakes and other natural disasters that she leaves in her wake to foil her competitors are what's causing her to win so much?
Rappstar
Jul 6, 08 19:15
Post #37 of 105 (2090 views)
Re: "...Jan Ulrich-like cadence..." [Jimtraci]
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I have tried it, though I don't suppose I tried it with Joel in any sort of empirical fact finding mission where we compared X weeks of big gear work to X weeks of something else. It certainly didn't seem to produce any remarkable results from my training logs. I would say that it didn't produce much of anything (I didn't get hurt, nor did I get much stronger). It was certainly inferior, based on week to week power files, as compared with the very immediate (week-to-week gains that are very obvious) from the strictly power-focused work we do (that ignored cadence, in as much as he left me to select my own cadence, which would vary with the workout, and how I felt).
One interesting thing about big gear work is that it does tend to tax your hip flexors in a way that might not be taxed with regular cycling. But your hip flexors are taxed plenty by running. So perhaps big gear work has a place for a pure cyclist that it doesn't have for a triathlete. But that's absolute speculation.
And beyond that, I'm just another N=1. I suppose some of it is that I'm a bit nervous about popping that tendon. And my coach has a program that I think works, based on performance. I don't plan on doing any big gear, but that's just me. I'd ideally like to see a counter argument to Dr. Coggan's paper. I don't think that would make me try big gear training, but at least it might change my mind about it being a waste of time.
One place where big gear MAY have application is that you can usually do it when you are tired, so perhaps it is a way to squeeze in extra training stress when you don't have the coordination (due to fatigue) to pedal a higher cadence. But that is really more a question of whether or not you are well served actually applying load in that case, or whether you'd be better to rest and put more energy into a workout the next day. But that's a periodization-type question, not necessarily a force-application type question.
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ericM35-39
Jul 6, 08 19:54
Post #38 of 105 (2056 views)
Re: "...Jan Ulrich-like cadence..." [Rappstar]
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Lance may have won because he switched to
racing
w/ high cadences, but that doesn't mean he didn't train in the off season w/ big gear work. I don't know either way, just saying.
But more importantly he won because he switched from the style that he thought he should use to the style that was correct for his body type and muscle composition and genetic gifts.
Someone else mentioned specificity.... very important, but typically in a classically periodized training program you move from the general to the specific, which again leaves room for Lance pushing big gears up Mt. Lemmon in the off season.
Rappstar, you seem to me like an ectomorph, ie. someone very lean and thin, and probably with a high percentage of slowtwitch muscle fibers. Others may have an easier time adding to the size of their muscle cells, and then must work to "recruit" that new muscle to do endurance work, not to mention the energy systems that go along with that type of work. Riding at low cadences probably stresses the muscle fibers more intensely than at higher cadences, watts be damned. At high cadences you are using more than just the musculo-skeletal system to produce power.... you're using your neural systems, aerobic systems, and energy systems as well.
Maybe low gear work is only targeted at one aspect of producing power, the aspect that Chrissy Wellington is weakest at, being a relative newcomer. Clearly her other systems are already there.
Jimtraci
Jul 6, 08 22:41
Post #39 of 105 (1971 views)
Re: "...Jan Ulrich-like cadence..." [Rappstar]
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I will most definitely not be writing a counter argument to Dr. Coggan's paper - so I guess your mind is made up.
I am, however, in the process of writing a very important paper on a different topic. It's called: "There's More Than One Way To Skin a Cat (although I lack any scientific evidence to back it up ... in fact I've never actually skinned a cat)." If I didn't know this to be true, I'd spend more time trying to change your mind;)
You're riding great - that's a definite fact!
JR
ancientdude
Jul 6, 08 23:23
Post #40 of 105 (1941 views)
Re: "...Jan Ulrich-like cadence..." [Rappstar]
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You are a great cyclist and I admire you for that!
Just an anectdote (sp?).
When I trained in Colombia with both European pro's and Continental pro's, Tuesday was known as Big Gear (climbing) Tuesday. No matter who I rode with (whether it was Ardila, Laverde etc...), they were all doing their Big gear training.
Everyone is an incredible climber there, weighs less than 60kg and 98% of them train without power.
On two occasions I witnessed them doing their bi-monthly fitness test (30 min climb with a Powertap) and some of the top climbers were doing 360-375w for 30 min (at 60kg).
bermudabill
Jul 7, 08 2:09
Post #41 of 105 (1905 views)
Re: "...Jan Ulrich-like cadence..." [dano]
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IIRC, there was a group of European scientists that reviewed the tapes (the entire tour, not just the highlights) of the 3rd or 4th win by LA and they wrote that the 110rpm was a crock. LA used high cadence at specific times such as TTs and breaks and at the end of stages. 90% or something like that, when he was not on TV but still being filmed (he was pretty much filmed by someone the whole tour) he was pedaling at 85rpm, similar to many of the GC. 110 was not his 'every day' pace it was just one more tool in the bag.
a lot of the 110rpm mythology was just media needing something to say because they didn't know much about cycling plus if you are going to have a big time rivalry you need to differentiate the opponents and the masher image fit the german sterotype better. it's all just PR folks...
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Frank Black
Jul 7, 08 3:00
Post #42 of 105 (1882 views)
Re: "...Jan Ulrich-like cadence..." [Rappstar]
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I'd be curious if you've read Dr. Coggan's article on "big gear" work:
http://home.earthlink.net/~acoggan/setraining/
If not, and if you have the time, I'd be intrigued to hear a response to what he wrote there.
Your thoughts on one of the studies cited in Coggan's article?
High-resistance interval training improves 40-km time-trial performance in competitive cyclists. Sportscience 9, 27-31, 2005.
The main finding of this investigation was
that eight weeks of low-cadence high-resistance
interval training improved mean power by ~8%
in a 40-km time trial in well-trained male cy-
clists.
Andrew Coggan
Jul 7, 08 5:36
Post #43 of 105 (1805 views)
Re: "...Jan Ulrich-like cadence..." [Frank Black]
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In Reply To:
I'd be curious if you've read Dr. Coggan's article on "big gear" work:
http://home.earthlink.net/~acoggan/setraining/
If not, and if you have the time, I'd be intrigued to hear a response to what he wrote there.
Your thoughts on one of the studies cited in Coggan's article?
High-resistance interval training improves 40-km time-trial performance in competitive cyclists. Sportscience 9, 27-31, 2005.
The main finding of this investigation was
that eight weeks of low-cadence high-resistance
interval training improved mean power by ~8%
in a 40-km time trial in well-trained male cy-
clists.
My thought is that since the study lacked an appropriate control group (i.e., subjects who did intervals at a normal cadence), you can't draw any conclusions re. the relative efficacy of low cadence intervals. All that can be said is what they didn't do, which is increase strength or cause hypertrophy (which is no surprise given the relatively low forces involved).
Frank Black
Jul 7, 08 6:33
Post #44 of 105 (1749 views)
Re: "...Jan Ulrich-like cadence..." [Andrew Coggan]
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You say this in response to the question if BG doesn't work, what will:
The answer to this question, of course, is pedaling at an even higher power output, e.g., performing maximal or near-maximal efforts, especially from an initially low cadence (what Dr. Martin has long referred to as “special force” training).
Humor me, but could Jimmy be correct, in that you weren't "doing it right"? I.e. maybe it was so effective for him because he was putting out maximal efforts? I read once on this site that his preferred method was a big gear up a short steep hill.
gtingley
Jul 7, 08 6:48
Post #45 of 105 (1719 views)
Re: "...Jan Ulrich-like cadence..." [GO]
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My TT cadence is high 80's, close to 88 RPM. I am working to get it into the 90s, but it is difficult to change cadence when I have been accustomed to riding at a lower cadence for years.
Rappstar
Jul 7, 08 7:08
Post #46 of 105 (1688 views)
Re: "...Jan Ulrich-like cadence..." [Frank Black]
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You say this in response to the question if BG doesn't work, what will:
The answer to this question, of course, is pedaling at an even higher power output, e.g., performing maximal or near-maximal efforts, especially from an initially low cadence (what Dr. Martin has long referred to as �special force� training).
Humor me, but could Jimmy be correct, in that you weren't "doing it right"? I.e. maybe it was so effective for him because he was putting out maximal efforts? I read once on this site that his preferred method was a big gear up a short steep hill.
But if you read his study, he was performing big gear correctly. He did do big gear at "maximal" output (depending on how you define the term). It was sub-maximal in that it was only about 90% of his "normal cadence power," but it was maximal for the low cadence. I.e., nobody (well, maybe Bjorn!) can generate the same power at 50rpm as they can at like 85-105rpm (whatever they want within that range). So from that perspective, you will always be "sub-maximal" (relative to what you could output at a higher cadence), which is part of why he argues against BG. The increase in pedal force is not high enough to change the way your body adapts, so all you are really doing is pedaling at a lower power (as the change in cadence is not sufficient to stimulate adaptation as defined in the article).
What I'd like to see (and I think this is the effective way to, potentially, answer Dr. Coggan's article) is a study that does EMG analysis of big gear riding. I.e., does it change the way you recruit your musculature when you pedal at a low cadence, and does this have any benefit. Dr. Coggan's article points out that BG work does not work for either of the reasons that people THINK it works. But that does not necessarily mean that it provides no benefit. I tend to view it as being a risk to your joints, and that training could be better spent elsewhere, but I certainly do agree with Jimmy that there is "more than one way to skin a cat."
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Andrew Coggan
Jul 7, 08 7:20
Post #47 of 105 (1669 views)
Re: "...Jan Ulrich-like cadence..." [Frank Black]
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You say this in response to the question if BG doesn't work, what will:
The answer to this question, of course, is pedaling at an even higher power output, e.g., performing maximal or near-maximal efforts, especially from an initially low cadence (what Dr. Martin has long referred to as “special force” training).
Humor me, but could Jimmy be correct, in that you weren't "doing it right"? I.e. maybe it was so effective for him because he was putting out maximal efforts? I read once on this site that his preferred method was a big gear up a short steep hill.
"Doing it right" for what purpose? If you want to increase your neuromuscular power, then standing start efforts are of course an excellent way of doing so (as any track cyclist could tell you). However, neuromuscular power is an important determinant of cycling performance only in very short timed events (e.g., kilo, team sprint), and/or those that involve actually sprinting for the finish line (e.g., match sprint, end of a criterium). Thus, in the context of the present discussion/most of the participants on this board, such training isn't really relevant.
Frank Black
Jul 7, 08 7:20
Post #48 of 105 (1664 views)
Re: "...Jan Ulrich-like cadence..." [Rappstar]
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But if you read his study, he was performing big gear correctly. He did do big gear at "maximal" output (depending on how you define the term). It was sub-maximal in that it was only about 90% of his "normal cadence power," but it was maximal for the low cadence.
His AEPF was well below what he did for the "special forces" training though, which he says works. My thought is that maybe Jimmy was doing something closer to that.
Although, I found the passage to which I was referring and it turns out I'm off-base with that line of thought:
Quote:
the favorite method of strength training by Jim Riccitello. It involves finding a steady grade—for Jimmy about 7%—and doing 10 or 12 minute intervals, seated, in a real big gear, only turning the gear about 30 rpm
. You’re going slowly when you do this workout, and you’re not breathing hard (if you are, you’re turning it into an aerobic workout, which it isn’t, it’s a strength workout).
Andrew Coggan
Jul 7, 08 7:22
Post #49 of 105 (1658 views)
Re: "...Jan Ulrich-like cadence..." [Rappstar]
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What I'd like to see (and I think this is the effective way to, potentially, answer Dr. Coggan's article) is a study that does EMG analysis of big gear riding.
Such studies have in fact been done, and they show essentially what you'd expect: at any given power output, global iEMG tends to be lowest at/around normal self-selected cadence, with recruitment of additional motor units required to generate the same power at either a significantly higher or a significantly lower cadence.
Frank Black
Jul 7, 08 7:24
Post #50 of 105 (1653 views)
Re: "...Jan Ulrich-like cadence..." [Andrew Coggan]
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However, neuromuscular power is an important determinant of cycling performance only in very short timed events (e.g., kilo, team sprint), and/or those that involve actually sprinting for the finish line (e.g., match sprint, end of a criterium). Thus, in the context of the present discussion/most of the participants on this board, such training isn't really relevant.
Ok, that makes sense.
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