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swim buddies at woman's tri
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FLA Jill
Jun 23, 08 19:52
Post #26 of 53 (840 views)
Re: swim buddies at woman's tri [hj-rockstar]
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Every year, the local Air Force base puts on an open to everyone event called My First Tri- 200M bay swim- 8 mile bike- 2.5 mile run. Two divisions- one for true first timers, and an 'alumni' division.
Swim's short enough and in shallow enough water that an adult can touch bottom the whole way. No swim angels, but you do get a number of nice looking fit gentlemen out there in zodiac boats keeping an eye out for trouble on the course. Bike's a straightforward out and back, run course is a big loop-small loop deal.
Atmosphere is very supportive of everyone racing without getting too woo-woo, and both men and women regard the race as a very positive first venture into multisport.
kath21
Jun 23, 08 20:12
Post #27 of 53 (831 views)
Re: swim buddies at woman's tri [cuds]
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There's this woman, I think her name is Kathrine Switzer, who ran the Boston Marathon in 1967. There's this guy named Jock who tried to rip off her number because she was a woman. I grew up in that era and I'm very thankful that there were women before me that proved they were tough enough to participate in "grueling" sports like running a marathon. Many more examples of this but hopefully one is enough for you to get my point. I agree it's too bad I've had to fight for my right to play sports since I was a kid but that's the way it was when I grew up. I pretty much played with boys on all my sports teams, was the only girl many times and they were ruthless if you weren't up to the task. I'm glad girls and women today have many more sports opportunities because some females were willing to prove themselves.
jenhs
Jun 23, 08 20:13
Post #28 of 53 (831 views)
Re: swim buddies at woman's tri [lilpups]
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I've voluteered as a swim angel for the last 2 years at the Seattle Danskin and have really mixed feelings about it. I think it is great to help women accomplish a goal but at the same time if they can't swim then why are they out there? I feel good about it until I do it and see how many of them have no idea what they are doing out there and it is actually dangerous.
I'll probably volunteer again this year (I might have already, I can't remember) because Danskin was my first race 6 years ago and I like to give back to an organization that got me started in triathlon.
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Ultraman Canada Relay 2009!
(I got suckered into the run leg)
Jenhs
kath21
Jun 23, 08 20:14
Post #29 of 53 (830 views)
Re: swim buddies at woman's tri [centermiddy]
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I love it. I love playing most sports.
deee
Jun 23, 08 20:17
Post #30 of 53 (827 views)
Re: swim buddies at woman's tri [kath21]
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There's this woman, I think her name is Kathrine Switzer, who ran the Boston Marathon in 1967. There's this guy named Jock who tried to rip off her number because she was a woman. I grew up in that era and I'm very thankful that there were women before me that proved they were tough enough to participate in "grueling" sports like running a marathon. Many more examples of this but hopefully one is enough for you to get my point. I agree it's too bad I've had to fight for my right to play sports since I was a kid but that's the way it was when I grew up. I pretty much played with boys on all my sports teams, was the only girl many times and they were ruthless if you weren't up to the task. I'm glad girls and women today have many more sports opportunities because some females were willing to prove themselves.
One is definitely enough to prove your point, absolutely. Sometimes I "forget" that things haven't always been the way they are - I'm still a youngin at the end of the day. I'm VERY lucky to have grown up in a time where women aren't looked down upon like they used to be (or at least not as much). Growing up the boys would often pick me in front of other boys, so I have definitely have had a different experience than you.
Allow me to change my stance, if you will: THANK YOU! Thank you for standing up and saying that chicks are just as good as dicks! :)
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cuds is retired.
lilpups
Jun 23, 08 20:25
Post #31 of 53 (824 views)
Re: swim buddies at woman's tri [cuds]
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You seriously don't care what other people think about your accomplishments/failures? If so, you must be the perfect buddhist and are ready for enlightenment.
I'm actually going to jump in here in support of cuds and agree with her that regardless of what I do or do not do in the sport of triathlon the last thing I care about is what other people (be they other triathletes, co-workers, parents, friends, etc) think. I think it's too hard to live this life trying to live up to what you perceive other people's opinion is of you and gave that up in middle school when I realized it was a battle I'd never win. Instead I focus on racing for myself and whether I come in first or last has no real bearing on my self esteem. Trust me, I'm competitive but it's against myself and not for the validation of others. When a race is over I don't give a damn how I did in comparison to others and I honestly can't tell you what my times were. At this point in my life I derive much more satisfaction in life from how my work is going and the relationships I have with my husband, family, and close friends.
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(This post was
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kath21
Jun 23, 08 20:35
Post #32 of 53 (815 views)
Re: swim buddies at woman's tri [cuds]
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You are lucky to be young! :-)
centermiddy
Jun 23, 08 20:51
Post #33 of 53 (803 views)
Re: swim buddies at woman's tri [kath21]
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I will come at this in a little bit of a different direction. I'll caveat to start, they don't allow me to race in all women's tri because I am male. My volunteer form for Danskin says I can't be a swim angel. My wife is lilpups, so I am married to a fish. I also share her view of the world, that unless you are racing for the win, you are merely racing yourself.
I find the nihilist view against providing athletes some level of support on the swim, if they so choose to take it, is a reasonably closed view and, therefore, bad for the sport. Within 30 seconds these people are in your review mirror and the RDs problem. Why anyone would choose to exclude them doesn't make much sense. I generally have found that people who rail against the under prepared feel their presence is diminishing one's own accomplishments in the eye of the un-educated (Sue from Accounting: What did you do this weekend? You: I did the XYZ tri? Sue: Oh really my sister in law Sable did that too and she can't even swim!). People should derive their sense of self from within, not relative to others. This concept that this somehow changes the definition of a triathlon is also without merit, since the definition is merely self applied. As an example, the New Balance Half Ironman is not a half ironman (every leg is short), but that doesn't stop them from calling it such. There is a local blind triathlete, he needs a swim guide, riding partner and run guide. I don't think anyone says he doesn't have a right to be out there even though he would never be able to complete the race without outside assistance. Net, net, don't judge, don't label, go out and take care of yourself and this will never be a problem for you. If you don't like it, don't race it.
Lastly, your male stereotypes are a little antiquated. While I would love to see an all male triathlon that doesn't mean that we will eschew the porta-potties and pee wherever we like. We are not all as pig headed as you make us out to be.
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kath21
Jun 23, 08 21:28
Post #34 of 53 (796 views)
Re: swim buddies at woman's tri [centermiddy]
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I find the nihilist view against providing athletes some level of support on the swim, if they so choose to take it, is a reasonably closed view and, therefore, bad for the sport. Within 30 seconds these people are in your review mirror and the RDs problem. Why anyone would choose to exclude them doesn't make much sense. I generally have found that people who rail against the under prepared feel their presence is diminishing one's own accomplishments in the eye of the un-educated (Sue from Accounting: What did you do this weekend? You: I did the XYZ tri? Sue: Oh really my sister in law Sable did that too and she can't even swim!). People should derive their sense of self from within, not relative to others. This concept that this somehow changes the definition of a triathlon is also without merit, since the definition is merely self applied. As an example, the New Balance Half Ironman is not a half ironman (every leg is short), but that doesn't stop them from calling it such.
Thanks for the lecture about my sense of self. That's good stuff. I'll make sure I bring it up at my next appt with my shrink. I'm not "railing" against the unprepared because I've been in many races where people are unprepared and that really is there problem, not mine. My point was that I've only seen this swim buddy thing in a women's race and I don't understand why they think women need this help.
There is a local blind triathlete, he needs a swim guide, riding partner and run guide. I don't think anyone says he doesn't have a right to be out there even though he would never be able to complete the race without outside assistance.
Are you comparing women to blind people? Wow, that says a lot.
Net, net, don't judge, don't label, go out and take care of yourself and this will never be a problem for you.
Sounds like you need to take some of this advice yourself.
Lastly, your male stereotypes are a little antiquated. While I would love to see an all male triathlon that doesn't mean that we will eschew the porta-potties and pee wherever we like. We are not all as pig headed as you make us out to be.
I think both men and women pee all over the place in triathlons. That's what I've heard at least. What male stereotypes are you talking about? Not sure what you mean about pig headed either.
centermiddy
Jun 23, 08 21:32
Post #35 of 53 (790 views)
Re: swim buddies at woman's tri [kath21]
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Okay, since you completely misunderstood my response, we will postpone the others the agony of trying to hash this out, but for the record I was not comparing women to a blind man, if you can't see that, well, your blind.
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kath21
Jun 23, 08 21:35
Post #36 of 53 (788 views)
Re: swim buddies at woman's tri [centermiddy]
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If it causes you so much agony then why did you post in the first place?
centermiddy
Jun 23, 08 21:38
Post #37 of 53 (783 views)
Re: swim buddies at woman's tri [kath21]
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I suffer no agony. I was just offering you a constructive opinion. Clearly you are not open to that so I'll just pet my dogs as opposed to engaging a verbal volley since you could not have taken my post anymore incorrectly.
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kath21
Jun 23, 08 21:42
Post #38 of 53 (781 views)
Re: swim buddies at woman's tri [centermiddy]
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OK buddy, have fun with your petting.
centermiddy
Jun 23, 08 21:47
Post #39 of 53 (776 views)
Re: swim buddies at woman's tri [kath21]
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I will. You enjoy your personal insecurity.
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My work blog:
http://bryanjaf.wordpress.com/
kath21
Jun 23, 08 21:58
Post #40 of 53 (774 views)
Re: swim buddies at woman's tri [centermiddy]
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I'll just pet my dogs as opposed to engaging a verbal volley
What happened?
SaraJean
Jul 1, 08 7:24
Post #41 of 53 (569 views)
Re: swim buddies at woman's tri [kath21]
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I guess a big part of the thing that bothers me is that I've never seen this at a coed race. It bothers me that a race director would think that women will need help but men won't. I may be wrong about this not being offered at any coed races though so I was wondering if anyone had seen it at a race where men were swimming as well. I'm all about being inclusive in triathlon, don't get me wrong but I just don't like the "women might need extra help" message.
I may be wrong about this, but it seems like the Danskin series is designed for the subset of women who would be intimidated by a regular coed race. My perception is based on things like the assurance that one will not finish last (they have a designated last-place finisher) and the really elementary stuff in the FAQs ("Why can't I use a kickboard?"). In the context of this, I think the message "Women
who are intimidated by a coed triathlon
might need extra help" is perfectly appropriate.
If enough men were willing to admit they were intimidated by a coed triathlon, there might be a market for a men-only beginner's tri, but I doubt such a race would get enough participants to make it worthwhile.
"Real winners aren't content with yesterday's victories"
jenhs
Aug 18, 08 19:40
Post #42 of 53 (344 views)
Re: swim buddies at woman's tri [lilpups]
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Were you there Sunday, lilpups?
I volunteered again as an Angel and we had an accident that has reminded me how dangerous this is for people, regardless of gender, who aren't ready. One of the women apparenly panicked, went under, and is still unconscious in the hopital. I didn't see it. I took one woman around the entire course who absolutely didn't belong in the water and had to talk to her the entire time. We stopped at every surfboard, she used my noodle to catch her breath and was freaked out the entire time. I couldn't bring myself to say anything negative to her so I encouraged her the whole way and she hugged me and cried when she finished. I'm not sure how I feel about it.
In contrast, I accompanied one of the very last women around the entire course and she didn't need any help at all. She didn't hold on to anything and chatted the whole way. She just kind of dog paddled along and took forever but she wasn't panicky, just slow.
I have really mixed feelings about the entire program. I think in some ways it encourages women who aren't ready to be in the water to go ahead and do it because someone will be there to hold their hands. I was holding the start line of noodles for a while and was pretty shocked at what I heard. A suprising number of them said they'd never been in the lake and I heard one or two talk about it being along time since they'd swum at all.
I don't think Danskin does enough to discourage women who aren't ready. This is dangerous for swimmers and angels when there is so much panicking and need for help.
I'm not sure I'll do it again. I don't feel 100% safe myself. I don't want to get pulled under. I also got kicked and smacked around a suprising amount, more than most races I'm racing in.
There was a lot of surfboards, kayaks and several boats on the short course so they had it as safe as possible but it is still water and you can't mess with water.
I hope this woman pulls through.
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Ultraman Canada Relay 2009!
(I got suckered into the run leg)
Jenhs
lilpups
Aug 18, 08 20:16
Post #43 of 53 (335 views)
Re: swim buddies at woman's tri [jenhs]
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I wasn't there (I did notify the race director a few weeks ago I wouldn't be able to make it) and I'm so sorry to hear about the woman who went under. Just based on what I was hearing women say around town this past week (ie - in tri/running stores) it definitely sounded like a lot of women were doing the race severly underprepared. More of an "anyone can do it" mentality rather than something that needs to be trained for. It was a little unnerving...especially when compounded with this latest news.
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TriStrut
Aug 19, 08 9:34
Post #44 of 53 (280 views)
Re: swim buddies at woman's tri [kath21]
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I guess a big part of the thing that bothers me is that I've never seen this at a coed race.
It bothers me that a race director would think that women will need help but men won't. I may be wrong about this not being offered at any coed races though so I was wondering if anyone had seen it at a race where men were swimming as well. I'm all about being inclusive in triathlon, don't get me wrong but I just don't like the "women might need extra help" message.
I've seen it at one co-ed race - at the Tri-Ing for Children Triathlon (in Wisocnsin) they were offering swim buddies for the race.
But I think a large part of it is not necessarily that "women need the help and men don't" - but rather that Danskin caters to beginner triathletes much more heavily than most races do. They are large races with a lot of resources, and can provide additional support.
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nadoniac
Aug 19, 08 9:38
Post #45 of 53 (277 views)
Re: swim buddies at woman's tri [lilpups]
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Just wanted to throw this out there...
The San Diego International Tri in June every year is a coed race that provides swim buddies. The swim buddies don't have noodles or any other flotation devices, they're just volunteers who swim alongside and provide encouragement. The race has 2 different distances-- a sprint distance (0.5K Swim, 20K Bike, 6K Run)
and an international distance (1K Swim, 30K Bike, 10K Run), so it brings in both beginner and experienced triathletes.
So it's not just all-women tris that have swim buddies/angels.
jess!
Aug 19, 08 9:50
Post #46 of 53 (272 views)
Re: swim buddies at woman's tri [jenhs]
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I was there too as a swim angel. I had one of the women I swam with take in a mouthful of water and completely panic. I had no choice but to turn onto my back and hold her while she coughed it out because she was clawing and kicking at me and I was scared for both of us. The other woman I swam with hadn't trained at all in the pool and had never swam open water but managed to make it through the swim in about 30 minutes without anything but some encouraging words.
I agree about races like Danskin being great for helping women who never thought they had an athletic bone in their body finish a triathlon but I am also conflicted about the assistance that a lot of these women were given, especially since it's a USAT sanctioned race. After the accident on Sunday with the woman going under (who actually had been training for the race but I believe got kicked or something) I think the race promoters should should take a little more initiative in ensuring that all of the women who step into the water are confident that they can swim 800m.
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Steve-oH!
Aug 19, 08 10:32
Post #47 of 53 (261 views)
Re: swim buddies at woman's tri [jess!]
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After reading throught this thread I think I am beginning to alter my position on "swim buddies"..........before I would have been all for them....anything to get people over their fear of open water and enjoy what triathlon can offer....but it appears from these posts that some unprepared newbies are taking this to far....forgoeing common sense basic preperation for the swim and relying on organizers to get them through the swim safely....
personally, I can imagine putting myself in an open water swim without knowing I could swim it safely and well...I dont like being unprepared for any event I am doing...for me its part of the challenge to be able to frain and prepare to do the leg of the event if you are not experience....I have done some winter triathlons with speed skating and xc skiing when I iived where there was no snow......I trained on roller skis and inline skartes and drove 110 miles to Tulsa Oklahomoa to get some ice time in before the event.......I always assumed the swim buddies where more for a safety back up plan for PREPARED participants....seems like in enough of these situations that is not the case...
I founded a Triathlon Training Program for new comers and we had 3 open water swim sessios that similated the race start in a crowd.....something you cant do on your own...I can tell you that every year we had even competent swimmers panic and have trouble...it suprised them....this is whey we had three sessions....by the third one most were prepated to swim on their own after working out there issues with our coaching....
I will say that there does seem to be a trend of people doing triathlon that are less prepared than ever before...and that is concerning.......in our pogram I always wanted to be supportive and encouraging but I began to starti thinking to myself "come on!...you have got to do some training on your own to get ready and make this fun..........." and that is one of the reasons I retired from the program....if felt like some (a minority) wanted us to get them throught the event ieven though they had not done some basic training....I like people who like to help themselves....
kath21
Aug 19, 08 12:21
Post #48 of 53 (232 views)
Re: swim buddies at woman's tri [nadoniac]
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That's good to hear. I'm not a fan of the concept but at least it's not always directed at women.
trackie clm
Aug 19, 08 13:39
Post #49 of 53 (213 views)
Re: swim buddies at woman's tri [Steve-oH!]
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>>I founded a Triathlon Training Program for new comers and we had 3 open water swim sessios that similated the race start in a crowd.....something you cant do on your own<<
Excellent idea Steve-oH. I do the same thing in the pool and also put the fear into them to get to our open water swims.
I will put everyone in one lane and make 2-3 rows, depending on the numbers, and then do 25s. One time the fast people will be in front and the slower people need to try to stay on their feet as long as possible. Next time the slower people are in front and the faster people behind and they need to try to get around them without swimming on top of them. Everyone really likes this drill and says it helps when they get in the open water. They also get practice of people swimming right next to them.
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leslieW
Aug 21, 08 9:57
Post #50 of 53 (160 views)
Re: swim buddies at woman's tri [jenhs]
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I volunteered again as an Angel and we had an accident that has reminded me how dangerous this is for people, regardless of gender, who aren't ready. One of the women apparenly panicked, went under, and is still unconscious in the hopital. I didn't see it.
Any word on how the woman who went under is doing?
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