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was he justified in killing the burglars?

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jana

Nov 17, 07 16:02

Post #1 of 179 (2003 views)

was he justified in killing the burglars?	Can't Post

Nov. 17, 2007, 12:55AM
Pasadena man remorseful about killings captured on 911 call, attorney says

By ALLAN TURNER and DALE LEZON
Copyright 2007 Houston Chronicle
The Pasadena man who killed two suspected burglars as they left his next-door neighbor's home did not intend to kill them when he stepped outside with his 12-gauge shotgun, his lawyer said Friday.
In portraying Joe Horn as a victim of circumstances, lawyer and longtime friend Tom Lambright called the 61-year-old computer consultant "a good family man" who has been devastated by the Wednesday afternoon burglary and shooting.
Killed in the incident in the 7400 block of Timberline were Miguel Antonio DeJesus, 38, and Diego Ortiz, 30, both of Houston.
Each had a minor previous brush with the law. Records show DeJesus was charged with failure to identify himself to a police officer in July 2004. He pleaded guilty and was sentenced to 20 days in jail. Ortiz was charged with possession of marijuana in July 2005, but it was later dismissed.
"He (Horn) was just doing what everyone is supposed to do," Lambright said at a news conference in front of the Houston police memorial near downtown. "He called the police. He was cooperating with them as best he could, trying to give the police the direction of the burglars. He knew there was danger going outside."
Horn ignored repeated instructions from a 911 dispatcher to remain in his home. He told the dispatcher, "I'm not going to let them get away with it. I can't take a chance in getting killed over this. OK? I'm gonna shoot. I'm gonna shoot."
While lawyers and legal experts across the city continued to debate the legality of Horn's actions, he has left town with his family, Lambright said.
"Hopefully he will see a doctor and maybe get a sedative," he said. "He is not well mentally. This has devastated him. Not in his wildest dreams could he fathom this event."
Lambright said Horn, whom he has considered a friend for 41 years, wept inconsolably during their conversations.
"Joe is the absolute opposite of what everyone thinks he is," Lambright said. "He is not a cowboy. He is not physical. He's 61 years old and overweight. He's not confrontational. He's just a good guy."
Lambright read a written statement in which Horn said the killings would "weigh heavily on me for the rest of my life. My thoughts go out to the loved ones of the deceased."
Lambright said Horn was a hunter, but kept the shotgun in his pickup "for security."
No firearms in houseHorn lives with his daughter and granddaughter and does not keep firearms in the house, his lawyer said.

Lambright said Horn was upstairs working at a computer about 2 p.m. when he heard the sound of breaking glass next door. Horn called 911, engaging in a protracted conversation with the dispatcher, who repeatedly advised him to wait inside until police arrived.
"Mr. Horn, do not go outside the house. You're going to get yourself shot if you go outside that house with a gun," the dispatcher told Horn at one point.
"You wanna make a bet," Horn responded. "I'm gonna kill them. They're gonna get away."
Legal opinions conflictLambright contended that Horn was startled to find the burglars just 15 feet from his front door when he stepped onto his porch. "He was petrified at that point," the lawyer said. "You hear him say, 'I'll shoot. Stop!' They jumped. Joe thought they were coming for him. It's a self-defense issue."

Attorneys and legal experts said Horn's defense probably will be based on state law that allows people to use deadly force to protect neighbors' property.
"If you see someone stealing your neighbor's property, you can get involved and help to stop it," said Sandra Guerra Thompson, a law professor at the University of Houston Law Center.
Others disagreed.
The statutes that allow people to use deadly force to stop a burglary appear to require that the incident be occurring at night, said Craig Jett, a Dallas criminal defense attorney and president of the Texas Criminal Defense Lawyer's Association.
"It can't be during the day," Jett said.
Experts said that a grand jury may sympathize with Horn. Some people believe that you should be able to protect your neighborhood, said Anthony Osso, a Houston criminal defense attorney.
Osso said that Horn's defense might be that he wanted to prevent the robbers from leaving until police arrived, but they tried to flee and he shot them.
"His best scenario is that he went out to use the threat of deadly force," Osso said. "But they came at him on his own property."
Osso said Horn's 911 call does not tell the whole story about the shooting. Investigators will need information about where the suspects were shot and if they had stopped when Horn ordered them not to move.
"Some people on the grand jury will sympathize with him," said Adam Gershowitz, a law professor at South Texas College of Law. "Maybe he shouldn't have done this, but he was acting in a way a lot of people feel."
But that does not mean he won't be charged, Gershowitz added.
"There's a reason we don't let people take the law into their own hands," he said. "We have a police force for that. As an established society, we believe we are better off with an authorized police force that has standards and training rather than untrained vigilantes."
A transcript of the 911 call suggests Horn intended to do what he felt necessary to stop the burglars. Despite a concerted effort by the dispatcher to persuade him to let police deal with the break-in, Horn was insistent on trying keep them from getting away.
"I don't want you going outside, Mr. Horn," the dispatcher said.
"Well, here it goes, buddy," Horn said. "You hear the shotgun clicking, and I'm going."
Seconds later three shotgun blasts are heard.
Praise for dispatcherExperts who reviewed a recording of the call at the Chronicle's request said the dispatcher handled the call professionally and did all he could to defuse the situation until police arrived.

"He was doing everything he could to 'normalize' the conversation and not agitate the caller any further," said Sue Pivetta, a training consultant from Sumner, Wash. "Trust me when I say that he was indeed showing professional control at the highest level."
Charles Carter, a former police executive in Atlanta who has trained dispatchers for two decades, said the officer who handled Horn's call used proven techniques to dissuade him from leaving his home.
"We teach a technique called repetitive persistence," Carter said. "It needs to be at a level lower than the person calling to try to get him to calm down and listen to you. ... He did an outstanding job and needs to be commended."

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brandonecpt

Nov 17, 07 16:49

Post #2 of 179 (1983 views)

Re: was he justified in killing the burglars? [jana] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Justified? I don't know, I think we'll see.

But, I bet he's wishing he hadn't at this point. But, from the quotes from the phone call, it almost sounds like he went out there looking to shoot someone. But, I wasn't there, so I don't know that, just basing it off of the quotes.

I had to chuckle a little though, a Texan with a shotgun in his pickup? That's just hilarious! ;-)
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malcoda

Nov 17, 07 18:23

Post #3 of 179 (1954 views)

Re: was he justified in killing the burglars? [jana] [In reply to]	Can't Post

the local radio show was playing the 911 call the other morning. here is the website with the call on it.

http://www.kvet.com/...kvetmorningshow.html

almost every single person that called in said the guy did the right thing, the burglar had it coming and or the guy that shot them should get a medal.

"The posse's on Broadway. 5 Fellows and 22 freaks."
Sir Mixalot

jana

Nov 17, 07 18:29

Post #4 of 179 (1949 views)

Re: was he justified in killing the burglars? [malcoda] [In reply to]	Can't Post

i just don't see it. yes, they were wrong in burgularizing someone's home, but the criminal punishment for burgulary is not DEATH> in some states MURDER does not get a death penalty. who gave him the right to make the decision for their punishment?
the guy should have stayed in his house and waited for the police. he was not in harms way.
i never even heard that the guys had anything stolen from the house in their possession when shot.
HE LEFT HIS HOME AND WENT OUTSIDE AND SHOT THEM, i consider this wrong!
maybe i am wrong in my thinking. i can not believe everyone sides with the killer.
i am a born and raised Texan but do not and can not believe people really think he was justified.
what do YOU think????
jana

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Larry Himmel

Nov 17, 07 18:52

Post #5 of 179 (1936 views)

Re: was he justified in killing the burglars? [jana] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

what do YOU think????
jana

I don't care much for his actions (as described in the article) but I don't care much for criminals either. If they attacked him on his own property, too bad for them. If he shot them as they were fleeing then I wouldn't be someone that he would want on his jury.

malcoda

Nov 17, 07 19:20

Post #6 of 179 (1918 views)

Re: was he justified in killing the burglars? [jana] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I disagree with his actions. He was repeated instructed not to go outside. It wasn't his property, he wasnt in any danger and when you listen to the call you can tell he just wanted to get his gun off. Had they broken into his house and he shot them I might feel differently.

"The posse's on Broadway. 5 Fellows and 22 freaks."
Sir Mixalot

cslone

Nov 17, 07 20:49

Post #7 of 179 (1896 views)

Re: was he justified in killing the burglars? [jana] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I understand what you are saying, and am in no way saying he was in the right. But in the back of my head I keep saying, "Well if they would obey the law there would be no chance of them getting shot." But I'm cynical like that.

It's a terrible situation, and I can't quite agree with him shooting if nobody was in danger. I have guns but doubt I would shoot anyone over property.
______________
HEDmafia.com

TripleThreat

Nov 17, 07 23:35

Post #8 of 179 (1878 views)

Re: was he justified in killing the burglars? [Larry Himmel] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I don't care much for his actions (as described in the article) but I don't care much for criminals either. If they attacked him on his own property, too bad for them. If he shot them as they were fleeing then I wouldn't be someone that he would want on his jury.

Looking at it from another view ...

[1] He seemed to state, quite obviously, that he was going outside to "shoot them" so that they "wouldn't get away with it". In effect, he wasn't protecting anyone, he was going to injure or kill someone so they wouldn't get away with burglary.

[2] With his intent in mind ... wouldn't the actions of the burglars (charging the gunman) be considered MORE self-defense than the guy with the gun and the intent to shoot someone, claiming to shoot them out of self-defense?

In other words, can I really claim self-defense when I'm being attacked by unarmed men whom I intentd to shoot?

I respect the willingness to protect others, but in this case the shooter actually made the situation WAY worse by not following the advice of trained professionals. He felt it was more appropriate to go "handle it himself".

Again, he made it worse. He should be held accountable for his actions. He ignored professional advice because it wasn't congruent with what he thought he should do. I want criminals to pay for their crimes, but in this case, the man seemingly made himself a criminal. Perhaps his other neighbor should have grabbed their gun to make sure the original gunman didn't get away with shooting some burglerers out of *cough* self defense ... and then the other neighbor could have taken another gun to stop the other neighbor from shooting the gunman who intended to shoot the burglerers. And then the other neighbor ...

Sounds like the guy wanted to be a hero, and got himself into a situation he was not prepared for ... or he wanted to be a hero and did EXACTLY what he intended to do. Now, he's really, really sad and doesn't want to be charged with murder. Does he want the law upheld or not? ... or just when it applies to other people?

Regardless, his lawyer sure is working it.

GRanted we all need to know more information.

=======================

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(This post was edited by TripleThreat on Nov 17, 07 23:39)

Gazelle

Nov 18, 07 0:37

Post #9 of 179 (1872 views)

Re: was he justified in killing the burglars? [jana] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Whether or not he was right, I'm not wasting my time with any sympathy for criminals. They put themselves in that situation. If they hadn't been trying to ROB someone, then they wouldn't have been shot, now would they? No. So whose fault is it? I've been robbed, by these scum-sucking parasitical good-for-nothing crackhead losers, who choose to prey on innocent people rather than work hard to make an honest living. No sympathy for criminals, not from me. As a friend's mother used to say, "if he had been sitting in church like I told him, none of this would have happened."
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Helitech

Nov 18, 07 5:19

Post #10 of 179 (1849 views)

Re: was he justified in killing the burglars? [jana] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Just another case of an angry old man watching too much TV , he or his family were never threatened with harm . To guess the intent of the burglars as too their skill or weapons they had ,would be difficult . Till they corner you with a weapon your hands are tied he could have fired a warning shot in the dirt . Since we have no idea of the distances or surrounding / visibility, I wouldn't have fired at people outside .

The sad part is this happens hundreds of times a day across the US, generally with a good out come . Armed folks defending their homes and property without a shot - it never makes the news as the press thinks guns are evil .

Heli

dave_w

Nov 18, 07 5:41

Post #11 of 179 (1845 views)

Re: was he justified in killing the burglars? [Helitech] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

Just another case of an angry old man watching too much TV , he or his family were never threatened with harm . To guess the intent of the burglars as too their skill or weapons they had ,would be difficult . Till they corner you with a weapon your hands are tied he could have fired a warning shot in the dirt . Since we have no idea of the distances or surrounding / visibility, I wouldn't have fired at people outside .

It's interesting how personally the guy took this robbery. Not sure if he was close to neighbors, or if his feeling of personal violation just covered a larger area than only his home. It comes across strongly enough that I might use it as part of his defense.

"It's all about self-esteem"

Longboarder

Nov 18, 07 7:10

Post #12 of 179 (1832 views)

Re: was he justified in killing the burglars? [jana] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I was thinking about that the other day. I'm not a legal expert but "I think" in Ca he would be looking at a murder charge.

Train safe & smart

Bob

"Then the thought came back- f^*k you, keep moving. The little train that could, could. I'm moving forward again." Doug Stern

(This post was edited by Longboarder on Nov 18, 07 7:13)

ajfranke

Nov 18, 07 7:17

Post #13 of 179 (1827 views)

Re: was he justified in killing the burglars? [Longboarder] [In reply to]	Can't Post

The guy had a 100% right to step onto his porch with his shotgun, advice to the contrary from a 911 operator to the contrary notwithstanding. The 911 operator will always tell you to do nothing until the police arrive regardless of the situation. Do you think a 911 operator would have told the Virginia Tech students to resist the shooter? Failure to resist didn't work out so well in that case.

If the perps really did move to threaten the man, then he was well within his rights to protect himself.

I seriously doubt you would ever get a jury to convict absent much better information than this, which is likely unobtainable.
____
This forum is going to be a place of civil discourse, and those who wish to foment hate and discord are no longer welcome here. -- slowman 11/8/04

Art Franke

Danno

Nov 18, 07 8:29

Post #14 of 179 (1804 views)

Re: was he justified in killing the burglars? [ajfranke] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Quote

I seriously doubt you would ever get a jury to convict absent much better information than this, which is likely unobtainable.

You're probably right, especially considering the venue in which his case would likely come to trial. However, his statements to the 911 operator do not seem indicative of somebody who is just trying to do the right thing. True, we don't know whether the thieves made a move toward him, but a prosecutor could argue (maybe successfully, maybe not) that his actions were premeditated based on his statement recorded by 911, and thus, his account of what happened afterward is not credible given he was going out there looking to shoot his gun.

That said, I'm with Art; I doubt he'll ever see the inside of a court room.

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ajfranke

Nov 18, 07 8:39

Post #15 of 179 (1803 views)

Re: was he justified in killing the burglars? [Danno] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I wouldn't say he won't see the inside of a courtroom. We had a similar case in West Palm Beach in which the facts were much more if favor of the guy who defended himself. One of the survivors even admitted they were planning to beat him up before he opened fire. Still the authorities went ahead and prosecuted. The jury took about ten minutes to return a not guilty verdict. The prosecutor told the press afterwards that the facts were not favorable to their case, but they decided to let a jury decide.

What is with that? Prosecute the guy with no expectation of conviction? I thought that was against the legal code, never mind being absurd and putting the guy through hell for two years.
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This forum is going to be a place of civil discourse, and those who wish to foment hate and discord are no longer welcome here. -- slowman 11/8/04

Art Franke

slowguy

Nov 18, 07 9:34

Post #16 of 179 (1787 views)

Re: was he justified in killing the burglars? [ajfranke] [In reply to]	Can't Post

C'mon Art, can you seriously be defending this guy? I would think this guy would be the prime example for pro-gun ownership people to hold up as an irresponsible gun owner who didn't do what he should have, and put himself in a position where he was in danger, rather than defending himself in a situation brought on by someone else. This guy did not go out there to stand on his porch with a shotgun. His quote as he left the phone was "I'm gonna kill them". That's pretty clear. He went chambered a round, ran outside, yelled at them to stop and was firing (3 shotgun blasts, by the way) all within a second or two. In this situation, this guy was the aggressor, not the victim, no matter what actions the burglars took after he threatened them with a loaded shotgun. You don't get to point a gun at someone, threaten to shoot them, and then claim self defense when they don't just sit down with their hands in their lap.

I would think most pro gun guys would be pretty critical of this guys flagrant disregard for safety as well as the law. Since when is deadly force authorized to defend the material possessions of your neighbor?

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

Helitech

Nov 18, 07 9:40

Post #17 of 179 (1787 views)

Re: was he justified in killing the burglars? [ajfranke] [In reply to]	Can't Post

If the perps really did move to threaten the man, then he was well within his rights to protect himself.

**********************************************
Not really ,unless you exhaust any way to escape - your in the wrong. They ask , did you go back to your home - did you get out of his way ? The legal window to shoot someone is very narrow.

If he hits - wounds you to the point you fear for your life ,where you cant escape ,or have reduce capacity to escape . All bets are off , you can euthanize him in any fashion you like.

ajfranke

Nov 18, 07 9:50

Post #18 of 179 (1781 views)

Re: was he justified in killing the burglars? [slowguy] [In reply to]	Can't Post

The facts may be as one sided as you describe, but I seriously doubt you are going to get from here to proving all that beyond a reasonable doubt. There is not much information in the article, so I suppose there could be evidence that the movement the perps made was just to try to run away. I am not seeing that in the article though.

We will see how the case develops.
____
This forum is going to be a place of civil discourse, and those who wish to foment hate and discord are no longer welcome here. -- slowman 11/8/04

Art Franke

ajfranke

Nov 18, 07 9:53

Post #19 of 179 (1778 views)

Re: was he justified in killing the burglars? [Helitech] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I don't know about CA, but the laws in Florida and in most states now do not require you to cower in a corner of jump out a window before protecting yourself. No jury will enforce those absurd requirements anyway.
____
This forum is going to be a place of civil discourse, and those who wish to foment hate and discord are no longer welcome here. -- slowman 11/8/04

Art Franke

slowguy

Nov 18, 07 10:00

Post #20 of 179 (1777 views)

Re: was he justified in killing the burglars? [ajfranke] [In reply to]	Can't Post

" I suppose there could be evidence that the movement the perps made was just to try to run away. I am not seeing that in the article though"

How does it matter if they tried to run, or moved towards him? He initiated the threatening situation. He threatened them with a loaded shotgun. He can't initiate that situation, and then claim self defense.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

trio_jeepy

Nov 18, 07 10:09

Post #21 of 179 (1774 views)

Re: was he justified in killing the burglars? [jana] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Well, I'm sure you'd find impassioned defenses for somebody shooting a shoplifter who was running away as well. Evidently, the overriding doctrine here is the "well, they opened the door, all I did was walk through it" idea that since there was a criminal activity, any intervening result, including death by shotgun, is defensible. That's not rationality, that's Police Academy IV.

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ajfranke

Nov 18, 07 11:36

Post #22 of 179 (1755 views)

Re: was he justified in killing the burglars? [slowguy] [In reply to]	Can't Post

It may well be that the guy did something wrong. Walking out on the porch with his shotgun was not that thing. If you disagree, then you are going to have to explain why he didn't have a right to do that.

This situation is like the legally drunk driver that gets involved in a fatal accident at an intersection. It may well be that he is not impaired at a blood alcohol level of 0.08%, and it was the grandmother that sailed through the red light causing the crash, but the drunk driver is going to take the rap. The grandmother is going to skate.

The perps created the dangerous situation. Every assumption is going to cut against them.
____
This forum is going to be a place of civil discourse, and those who wish to foment hate and discord are no longer welcome here. -- slowman 11/8/04

Art Franke

brandonecpt

Nov 18, 07 12:26

Post #23 of 179 (1747 views)

Re: was he justified in killing the burglars? [ajfranke] [In reply to]	Can't Post

"The perps created the dangerous situation"

Dangerous, how? Dangerous in that if they were caught they'd end up in jail? Yes. Dangerous in that it was life threatening, I don't think so. Were they carrying weapons? I can't remember.

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"No real change on bike times" regarding PC's, though his run times seem to be improving -h2ofun 11/21/07

ajfranke

Nov 18, 07 12:44

Post #24 of 179 (1744 views)

Re: was he justified in killing the burglars? [brandonecpt] [In reply to]	Can't Post

They broke into the neighbor's house. As with the drunk driver, such an action negates any presumption of being a nice guy that wouldn't hurt someone.

Breaking into someone's house to rob it qualifies as a hostile act performed in the full knowledge that it could create a confrontation and injury.

This guy didn't know that those were the only two perps, that they were unarmed or that they didn't already harm or threaten to harm the neighbor. He could have taken these exact actions resulting in the saving of his neighbor's life.
____
This forum is going to be a place of civil discourse, and those who wish to foment hate and discord are no longer welcome here. -- slowman 11/8/04

Art Franke

Helitech

Nov 18, 07 14:25

Post #25 of 179 (1725 views)

Re: was he justified in killing the burglars? [ajfranke] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Breaking into someone's house to rob it qualifies as a hostile act performed in the full knowledge that it could create a confrontation and injury.

***********************
It could have been a son or daughter ,breaking the cellar window to get in without a key . If you blast them I don't think your neighbors will wave back when you honk the horn at Christmas .

The guy should have stayed inside , no one broke his glass or came after him . Hell maybe he can get a triple ,waiting for the paperboy . Officer " he came at me at high speed and threw an object at me ,I gave him both barrels "

Heli

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