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Slowtwitch Forums
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Lavender Room
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was he justified in killing the burglars?
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David in FL
Jul 1, 08 11:20
Post #126 of 172 (364 views)
Re: was he justified in killing the burglars? [saltman]
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Can't believe I have avoided this thread for so long. Too busy at work to keep up with the times. I am sure David in FL and Art will appreciate my opinion on this.
The only thing that would have made this just is if he had accidentally shot and killed himself. Just another idiot looking to get his gun off. Seriously, do you need anything other than a pulse to get a gun in Texas? I am starting to wonder if there is a law in Texas that actually prevents people from shooting other people.
It's got to drive you crazy that the law just doesn't hardly ever agree with you, doesn't it? ;)
"Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in a grey twilight that knows not victory nor defeat."
Theodore Roosevelt
saltman
Jul 1, 08 12:47
Post #127 of 172 (342 views)
Re: was he justified in killing the burglars? [David in FL]
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LOL, whilst true....the moral compass usually does...
TooSlow
Jul 1, 08 12:59
Post #128 of 172 (339 views)
Re: was he justified in killing the burglars? [Danno]
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If have a question about this.....
# 2. There was an unmarked cop car at the scene before the shooting started
What was the officier waiting for? Why was he still in his car and not outside of the vehicle defusing the situation? Was he waiting for backup? Why? Wasn't The "only" threat was on the phone with the police?
broadbill
Jul 1, 08 14:04
Post #129 of 172 (322 views)
Re: was he justified in killing the burglars? [android]
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Texas has a long history of allowing you to protect not only yourself and your loved ones, but also your stuff (and your neighbor's stuff) with lethal force. We also recently passed the castle law that protects people from lawsuits filed by survivors of criminals shot by citizens protecting themselves (and their stuff) Not one of these laws mention race.
Danno was the one said that he thought this was a racially motivated situation, not me.
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With a large percentage of the population owning guns in the house or even legally carrying concealed handguns, you'd think criminals would understand that they are risking their lives to commit theft or any crime of violence in the state of Texas. It is NOT a matter of us choosing whether a person's life is valuable or not. When a person chooses to commit crimes in Texas knowing they can be legally shot and killed, THEY have made the choice that their life has NO VALUE, NOT the shooter who is exercising his legal right to protection.
Hey, if this is what you have to tell yourself to sleep at night after killing a guy because he was trying to steal your game console or TV, then by all means don't let my opinion stop you.
You are correct that it was their choice to commit a crime, but don't make it sound like its your moral responsibility to blow the guy away. You have a choice too. If you choose to kill him, then what you are saying is that his life is worth less than the game console or TV. Again, I'm not judging this guy's decision, I'm just saying that is the underlying decision that this guy made. It sounds like you don't like to think of it this way, but that doesn't make it incorrect.
I know if I were this guy and I chose to act as he did, I would be doing a whole lot of second-guessing right now, regardless if I still acted legally and within the letter of the law.
broadbill
Jul 1, 08 14:06
Post #130 of 172 (320 views)
Re: was he justified in killing the burglars? [android]
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I am totally shocked by the grand jury. I agree that property is not worth the value of a life. Even the life of a thief. People commit crimes every day but they do not warrant taking lives. This man was wrong in what he did. He had no right to kill those men. He has to live with that for the rest of his life.
The people and laws of Texas don't agree with your beliefs. And for good reason, what if a thief stole your car and cellphone and left you here in the middle of the summer when it's 115F? Is protecting your property worth your life? I think it is.
I get what you are saying, but I think we can agree that this would be a totally different situation from on the one Horn found himself in and would warrant a different response.
TooSlow
Jul 1, 08 15:18
Post #131 of 172 (307 views)
Re: was he justified in killing the burglars? [broadbill]
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Just for a minute let us think about the victims for a second.
Hey look there is a guy with a gun in his hand, and he is telling us "stop or I will shoot!!"...
Why would they feel it is OK not to stop and drop to the ground?
Were these two guys acting without fear of retaliation?
Three people here made choices. Only one it seams acted within the law. Only one it seams acted in fear of retaliation.
Danno
Jul 1, 08 17:25
Post #132 of 172 (296 views)
Re: was he justified in killing the burglars? [broadbill]
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Dude...relax....
You must have me confused with somebody who was upset. I was just making a point. Lighten up, Francis.
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As for the race issues .... <snip> .... I don't know if this was racially motivated or not.
Neither do I . . . which is why I posed the question.
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Danno
Jul 1, 08 17:30
Post #133 of 172 (294 views)
Re: was he justified in killing the burglars? [broadbill]
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Danno was the one said that he thought this was a racially motivated situation, not me.
Actually, I didn't say Horn was racially motivated. I wondered whether there would be more sympathy/outrage at the double killing (and possibly an indictment of Horn) if the victims/burglars had been two 17-year old white kids from the neighborhood (or better yet, from some rich neighborhood).
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Danno
Jul 1, 08 17:35
Post #134 of 172 (294 views)
Re: was he justified in killing the burglars? [TooSlow]
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What was the officier waiting for? Why was he still in his car and not outside of the vehicle defusing the situation? Was he waiting for backup? Why? Wasn't The "only" threat was on the phone with the police?
Well . . . I can only tell you what I heard on the radio talk show that was discussing the incident. According to the show, the chief of police in Pasadena was quoted as saying that the unmarked car had just arrived at the scene and was keeping an eye on the burglars while waiting for backup, which was a minute or two away. That's when Horn came out and yelled at the guys to freeze or halt or whatever. According to the show, the chief says the cop made a decision not to get out because he didn't know if Horn would think he was the getaway driver or what (since he was in an unmarked car), and he didn't want to get shot at. Not sure I buy the whole story/sequence of events, but who knows? The chief did say that Horn's confrontation with the guys lasted a matter of seconds, so there wasn't a lot of time for the plain clothes cop to do anything once Horn came outside.
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TooSlow
Jul 1, 08 18:21
Post #135 of 172 (288 views)
Re: was he justified in killing the burglars? [Danno]
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Yea, I know we do not know what the unmarked guy was doing/thinking. I was guessing the possibility that he was waiting on backup. So the police thought that "maybe" these guys were indeed dangerous. Too dangerous to approach by themselves. So when Horn approached them, he assumed they were dangerous and acted accordingly.
Of course the other consideration was that the unmarked guy was waiting on the other option :-O
jec
Jul 1, 08 18:40
Post #136 of 172 (284 views)
Re: was he justified in killing the burglars? [Danno]
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tonight on fox megyn kelly reported that the undercover cop said one of the men moved towards joe horn when he approached them.local news was also saying that when the incedent first happened but then i never heard it again.
Danno
Jul 1, 08 19:04
Post #137 of 172 (281 views)
Re: was he justified in killing the burglars? [jec]
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tonight on fox megyn kelly reported that the undercover cop said one of the men moved towards joe horn when he approached them.local news was also saying that when the incedent first happened but then i never heard it again.
Hmmm. First I've heard of that.
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jec
Jul 1, 08 19:08
Post #138 of 172 (278 views)
Re: was he justified in killing the burglars? [Danno]
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mmmm,well it replays at 10:00 central on the factor smart ass.
steveperx
Jul 2, 08 9:40
Post #139 of 172 (255 views)
Re: was he justified in killing the burglars? [jec]
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mmmm,well it replays at 10:00 central on the factor smart ass.
Dude... who shit in your cornflakes? Where was the smart ass comment?
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Steve Perkins
Mr. Tibbs
Jul 2, 08 15:57
Post #140 of 172 (213 views)
Re: was he justified in killing the burglars? [android]
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Apples and oranges. The act of taking my car in cell phone is a direct threat to me and in my awesome opinion calls for severe reactions. If someone is leaving another persons property and has no committed direct physical violence against the third person then shooting them is cold blooded murder.
Mike Lamb
Jul 2, 08 17:35
Post #141 of 172 (198 views)
Re: was he justified in killing the burglars? [Danno]
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Did he moonwalk at him?
f/k/a mclamb6
Helitech
Jul 2, 08 22:46
Post #142 of 172 (181 views)
Re: was he justified in killing the burglars?
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This thread reads a lot different on shooting / reloading sites .
They figure one good sacrifice , will stop 100s more from repeating the crime
. Cheap justice ,,, sad but true .
Danno
Jul 3, 08 6:31
Post #143 of 172 (157 views)
Re: was he justified in killing the burglars? [Mike Lamb]
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Did he moonwalk at him?
Good point. If the guy moved toward Horn, how'd he get shot in the back?
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TooSlow
Jul 3, 08 9:23
Post #144 of 172 (268 views)
Re: was he justified in killing the burglars? [Danno]
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With no fear of retaliation...well right up to the point where he saw the gun being raised and pointed..then he realized OH NOOOOO!!!....too late...
Danno
Jul 3, 08 9:46
Post #145 of 172 (262 views)
Re: was he justified in killing the burglars? [TooSlow]
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With no fear of retaliation...well right up to the point where he saw the gun being raised and pointed..then he realized OH NOOOOO!!!....too late...
You think Horn went out there without having his gun already pointed at them? I'm not sure if he did or not, but if I was about to confront a couple of burglars and didn't know if they might be armed, I think I'd have my gun out and raised for them to see, as well as ready to fire immediately. I suppose your scenario is plausible, but it seems unlikey to me, especially since the cop in the unmarked car said it all went down in a matter of seconds. I dunno. Just seems unlikely to me.
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David in FL
Jul 3, 08 10:59
Post #146 of 172 (248 views)
Re: was he justified in killing the burglars? [saltman]
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LOL, whilst true....the moral compass usually does...
You know, if you move that big 'ole magnet away from that moral compass, you'll get a much more accurate reading........! ;)
"Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in a grey twilight that knows not victory nor defeat."
Theodore Roosevelt
TooSlow
Jul 3, 08 11:19
Post #147 of 172 (239 views)
Re: was he justified in killing the burglars? [Danno]
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If we take the unmarked's word on that one was heading towards him, maybe he was aimed at the other first. Then when the gun got turned on him, he turns to run.
Of course lets discuss what the victim was thinking as well. Horn was not the only one there. Although he ultimately was the one with the gun, he was not the one that caused the situation. Why was the criminal running? Why was he not in fear of being shot? What was going through his mind as well?
Most of us might have simply stopped quickly if someone was pointing a loaded shotgun at us. Not to mention that we wouldn't have committed the crime in the first place. So at what point do we stop asuming that those criminals were just like us? Think like us? Respect life/property like us?
How come there is no public outcry against the police officer who sat by while this took place? He was there BEFORE Horn was outside. Why was he not defusing the situation?
Mr. Tibbs
Jul 3, 08 11:23
Post #148 of 172 (238 views)
Re: was he justified in killing the burglars? [TooSlow]
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"Why was the criminal running?"
That is one stupid question. They where trying to get away from the scene of the crime and the guy with the gun. Fact is that the shooters life was not in danger and he had no reason to shoot.
David in FL
Jul 3, 08 12:14
Post #149 of 172 (228 views)
Re: was he justified in killing the burglars? [Mr. Tibbs]
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Fact is that the shooters life was not in danger and he had no reason to shoot.
Like it or not.....in TX your life doesn't need to be in danger to be allowed the use of deadly force.
"Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in a grey twilight that knows not victory nor defeat."
Theodore Roosevelt
steveperx
Jul 3, 08 12:16
Post #150 of 172 (228 views)
Re: was he justified in killing the burglars? [TooSlow]
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How come there is no public outcry against the police officer who sat by while this took place? He was there BEFORE Horn was outside. Why was he not defusing the situation?
Did you read the post where someone mentioned that the cop said he made the decision not to interfere because 1) he had arrived and was waiting for back up; 2) he was concerned about Horn being startled and turning the gun on him; and 3) the incident happened in a matter of seconds?
I'm not sure you can fault the cop here with any real legitimacy. I suspect that had he jumped out of the car when Horn came out of the house, either he or Horn would also be dead.
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Steve Perkins
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