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was he justified in killing the burglars?
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Tri N OC
Nov 24, 07 21:49
Post #76 of 172 (841 views)
Re: was he justified in killing the burglars? [YaHey]
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Do you know how many ways Texas law can be interpreted? Answer: in as many ways as there are lawyers in Texas.
Do you really believe the law is that random? It really isn't. One goal of the law is predictability. All those Texas lawyers need to be able to advise their clients regarding the probable consequences of their intended actions. So, between the wording of the specific law and the court opinions that have interpreted it, there is likely a consensus on the outcome. Even if you are correct and he was "in no danger" he was NOT under a duty to flee.
Without specifically researching it, but with some knowledge of no retreat decisions, I think he may well be brought up on some charge, but if he is (and I think it is a big if) it will be for advancing the goal of suppressing vigilantism rather than the shooting in defense of property.
TripleThreat
Nov 24, 07 22:13
Post #77 of 172 (837 views)
Re: was he justified in killing the burglars? [albush1]
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My biggest concern is people not protecting themselves in the heat of the moment because they are worried that they, while the victim at the time of the incident, will become the victim of the law which seems all too often side with the criminals.
I agree with this. But I don't see where the gunman was protecting himself. I do see where he decided he would kill two robbers because he didn't want them to get away with it (his words).
With a family, I amwilling to take chances and would rather be judged by a jury of six than by the man in heaven.
I'm a parent of three young kids. I wouldn't take any chances if the robbers were breaking into my house. I would assume that by breaking in they don't have "good thoughts" in mind for myself and my family.
But, again, in the case we're talking about, the robbers were leaving the neighbor's house without harming anyone. We could debtae that taking one's belongings is harming them ... but I think we're all on the same page in regards to what "harming someone" means.
It seems as if most people would seemingly allow harm upon themselves or others and act like a helpless victim when they are perfectly able to assist in some way. There are Good Samaritan laws that require us to help, and I will.
Again, I agree. If the robbers were holding the neighbors hostage or causing them harm, and the gunman went in and shot the robbers ... I wouldn't be saying what I am. They were leaving, without, hurting anyone and the guy had the intent to kill them because he didn't want them to get away with it. Seems to me he could have shot them in the legs or somethng to keep them from running, but that wasn't his intent at all.
I don't see where what happened in this situation is anywhere near what Good Samaritan laws allow.
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The crux of the situation relies on whether the law allows for a person to decide to kill somoene (and state it to law enforcement) that is leaving from the scene of a crime where they haven't physically harmed anyone.
The other aspect is wheter the gunman can claim self-defense when it was he who approached the robbers with the stated intent of killing them so they didn't get away with robbery.
Even with the stated law (posted earlier), I'm not seeing where he is legally justified in his semi-premeditated killings. We can argue whether he should or shouldn't have done what he did, I am just discussing whether he should be brought on manslaughter charges (and saying "yes").
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-- At 211 degrees water is hot. At 212 degrees water boils. Boiling water produces steam. You can power a locomotive with steam. Will you supply the extra degree that makes all the difference? ---
s98swim
Nov 25, 07 8:55
Post #78 of 172 (821 views)
Re: was he justified in killing the burglars? [TripleThreat]
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So these nice guys were just leaving the house they just robbed, walking down the street, maybe taking a bite out of an apple and pass by this guy (surely smiling and maybe wanting to talk about his new big screen tv), and this guy comes up and shoots them. What an a hole! I am sure that is how it happened (sarcasm). Maybe, maybe not. He does have the right to confront these upstanding citizens--last I checked. I would hope that the guy did not shoot unless his life was threatened (unclear, but most here assumed he was not threatened; b/c he said "I am going to kill them." By the way, that means nothing, think how many times you have said that in your life). Maybe someone could let the robbers families know where you live so that they can come over to "borrow" so things.
brandonecpt
Nov 25, 07 13:34
Post #79 of 172 (793 views)
Re: was he justified in killing the burglars? [s98swim]
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"
unclear, but most here assumed he was not threatened; b/c he said "I am going to kill them." By the way, that means nothing, think how many times you have said that in your life"
Not many times have I said that, and NOT ONCE was I cocking a shot gun and heading out to act on it. You do realize, if someone ever says "I'm going to kill them", then grabs his gun, heads outside, and follows through, it's pretty much premeditated murder, right?
Now, was he justified in killing the burglars? I don't think he was, but that's my opinion. If he really wanted to shoot them, clip a knee and call it a day.
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"Lemond is cycling's version of Rev Jessie Jackson." -johnnyperu 5/18/07
"Just because I suck doesn't mean my bike has to" -rickn 9/2/08
TripleThreat
Nov 25, 07 14:58
Post #80 of 172 (783 views)
Re: was he justified in killing the burglars? [s98swim]
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I don't know what else I can say that I haven't already said. All I'm saying is that the guys DID NOT hurt someone, since that seems to be the basis for the interpretations of the law that allow citizens to use force against a criminal. If the guy wanted them caught, there are lots of ways he could have helped in assisting that. Having them get caught wasn't his stated goal.
FWIW, I have never told law enforcement that I was going to kill somebody. I'm wondering if I have ever said that to someone? I know I've told some guys I was going to "F' them up" and then tried my best to do that. But, I don't think I've ever threatened to kill someone or told the police that I was going to kill someone.
You sound like the guys lawyer, that when he says he's "going to kill them" he didn't really mean it, even though he went straight for his gun and approached the robbers.
As I said in the past BOTH PARTIES ARE WRONG. The gunman being wrong, doesn't make the robbers right and vice-versa.
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-- At 211 degrees water is hot. At 212 degrees water boils. Boiling water produces steam. You can power a locomotive with steam. Will you supply the extra degree that makes all the difference? ---
jana
Nov 25, 07 15:48
Post #81 of 172 (779 views)
Re: was he justified in killing the burglars? [TripleThreat]
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(As I said in the past BOTH PARTIES ARE WRONG. The gunman being wrong, doesn't make the robbers right and vice-versa.
Bingo. they were wrong to rob his neighbors but what the gunman did was way worse than what they did. He killed 2 people over someone else's property. I think they had a couple hundred dollars of stuff in a pillowcase. was it worth killing them over it? I don't think he was in any way justified in leaving his home with a gun to "kill them". The police were on their way.
Here in Houston I believe I am in a minority with my opinion.
Jana
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TripleThreat
Nov 25, 07 17:16
Post #82 of 172 (772 views)
Re: was he justified in killing the burglars? [jana]
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I wonder what the sentiment would have been if it were the police that shot the man dead after stating "We're going to kill them".
I'm all for citizens helping to stop crime. I personally think it's not only valuable, but vital, in preventing crime. But, deciding to kill people engaged in lesser crimes makes one's self worse than the original criminals.
It always amazes me to hear of people becoming a more severe example of what they're trying to stop/control.
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I could understand the support for the guy iof he took out two armed men, or as an unarmed man stopped a crime, but I don't get why they're so supportive of an armed man that gunned down two robbers just so they wouldn't get away with it.
As I explained earlier, I think a lot of folks talk big, act big, and get invigorated with the mob mentality. Get them settled down, isolated, etc and their opinions may not be the same. No one wants to look like to "softy" (or much more derogitory words) in a public setting.
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-- At 211 degrees water is hot. At 212 degrees water boils. Boiling water produces steam. You can power a locomotive with steam. Will you supply the extra degree that makes all the difference? ---
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Bluefan75
Nov 25, 07 17:22
Post #83 of 172 (771 views)
Re: was he justified in killing the burglars? [TripleThreat]
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The big issue I have with the "gunman should not have..." side of the argument is that the supporting arguments revolve around "they only had....", and "no one was home...", "they didn't hurt anybody....". All of those statements have the benefit of hindsight. He didn't. His neighbor's house was being broken into, and he was being told "don't do anything." Had this house been broken into before? Had his own? What was the police response to those? Lke Art said, 911 is always going to say wait for the police.
Lie I said though, the big thing is that hindsight is being applied in the judgements, and that leaves it open to a different reaction if there were people hurt/dead in the house. He's either rigt or wrong in shooting. Saying he's wrong because nobody was hurt means he would be right if someone was. It doesn't work that way.
"I can endure more pain than anyone you've ever met. That's why I can beat anyone I've ever met." Steve Prefontaine, Without Limits
TripleThreat
Nov 25, 07 17:37
Post #84 of 172 (768 views)
Re: was he justified in killing the burglars? [Bluefan75]
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That was just one aspect. But, I do agree that hindsight does play a role in some of the comments being stated here. Had the neighbor's been strangled to death or tortured, the situation would be different.
My BIG issue is that he stated he was "going to kill them" beforehand. He already decided the outcome and everything else be damned.
We don't know what information the gunman knew (I don't recall him mentioning anything about anyone being harmed or potentially harmed in the 9-1-1 call). He might have known that nobody was home, he might not have. The one thing we do know is that we're only going to get one side of the story from here on out. In my experience, when you hear only one side of the story beit about divorce, a fight, an accident, etc, you get a very skewed (sometimes intentionally so) version of the situation.
I also have an issue with him claiming self-defense. If he had come out and said that he felt he was doing the right thing and was willing to accept the consequences if what he did was wrong, then I'd be more supportive. But he seems to be taking the very opposite approach.
Again, if he wanted the guys caught, he could have shot them in the legs. He didn't want them caught, he wanted them dead. IMO, he needs to know more information to much such a decision.
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-- At 211 degrees water is hot. At 212 degrees water boils. Boiling water produces steam. You can power a locomotive with steam. Will you supply the extra degree that makes all the difference? ---
sphere
Jun 30, 08 13:31
Post #85 of 172 (498 views)
Re: was he justified in killing the burglars? [BarryP]
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Cleared by a grand jury.
http://abcnews.go.com/...d=5278588&page=1
Full audio from the 911 call:
http://www.youtube.com/...&feature=related
"The nice part about being a pessimist is that you are constantly being either proven right or pleasantly surprised." - George F. Will
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sestivers
Jun 30, 08 14:22
Post #86 of 172 (458 views)
Re: was he justified in killing the burglars? [sphere]
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Note to self: do not, under any circumstance, move to (or even visit) the state of Texas.
Steve
Al P Duez
Jun 30, 08 14:35
Post #87 of 172 (447 views)
Re: was he justified in killing the burglars? [monty]
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Being a big fan of the Make My Day law I do, however, believe this guy made his own day and was wrong. Yet, equating burglary to a teenage prank ("acting out like many teenagers do") is a misguided form of moral relativism. Would you have felt the same if it was the true homeowner who shot them while they were breaking into his house?
BTW, why would use the father of medicine as an insult?
Okay, I just realized I responded to a last November post; time warp for me. Sorry.
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big kahuna
Jun 30, 08 14:41
Post #88 of 172 (440 views)
Re: was he justified in killing the burglars? [sestivers]
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Note to self: do not, under any circumstance, move to (or even visit) the state of Texas.
Don't mess with Texas, son.
BK
sestivers
Jun 30, 08 14:47
Post #89 of 172 (430 views)
Re: was he justified in killing the burglars? [big kahuna]
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I won't, I don't have any desire for being shot in the back.
Steve
Al P Duez
Jun 30, 08 14:50
Post #90 of 172 (427 views)
Re: was he justified in killing the burglars? [sestivers]
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Yeah, just continue to break into homes where you currently live. Don't mess with Tejas.
slowguy
Jun 30, 08 14:55
Post #91 of 172 (418 views)
Re: was he justified in killing the burglars? [Al P Duez]
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"Would you have felt the same if it was the true homeowner who shot them while they were breaking into his house? "
Of course that is entirely different from what happened, and logically, most people would feel differently in a completely different situation.
Slowguy
(insert pithy phrase here...)
Al P Duez
Jun 30, 08 15:00
Post #92 of 172 (414 views)
Re: was he justified in killing the burglars? [slowguy]
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Of course it is different, but equating burglary to something akin to a teenage prank begs the question. The whole logic of the penalty of death for burglary put forth by some here suggests that the Make My Day law here is inappropriate, but those who believe this are very much in the minority.
Did you read the part where I said the guy in Texas was wrong in my opinion. My opinion doesn't mean shit now.
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Danno
Jun 30, 08 15:12
Post #93 of 172 (403 views)
Re: was he justified in killing the burglars? [sestivers]
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Quote
Note to self: do not, under any circumstance, move to (or even visit) the state of Texas.
Do you normally burglarize homes in the states you visit? If not, feel free to come on down and enjoy! If so, then your note to self is right on target. :)
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Book 'em!
Member, Guru Cartel, EH?
jec
Jun 30, 08 16:16
Post #94 of 172 (449 views)
Re: was he justified in killing the burglars? [slowguy]
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i live in houston and crime is out of control here.these guys were breaking into a house in the afternoon in a part of the city known for crime.in my opinion joe horn didn't just prevent one crime.he prevented all the other crimes these pieces of shit were going to commit later.mr.horn had two decisions.he could stay in is house crying on the phone waiting 6 min. for a bunch of cops who could care less to show up and do what?arrest them and put them in jail for a short time until they got out and did it again and mabe kill someone this time, or he could go out there and send a message to other would be criminals who operate with out fear in this city.i dont care if he was in fear for his life or not.if everybody looked out for each other the way he did i don't think criminal would be so quick to trespass on peoples property and take whats not theres.
slowguy
Jun 30, 08 17:35
Post #95 of 172 (437 views)
Re: was he justified in killing the burglars? [jec]
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"i dont care if he was in fear for his life or not."
"he could go out there and send a message to other would be criminals"
I'm sure you feel this way, and probably so did the people who refused to bring him to trial. Unfortunately, we live under the rule of law, and you don't get to take it into your own hands to "send a message."
Slowguy
(insert pithy phrase here...)
jryan
Jun 30, 08 17:50
Post #96 of 172 (434 views)
Re: was he justified in killing the burglars? [jec]
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Can I shoot the people who are driving 85 on the interstate past my family and putting us at risk? It happens all the time and if I were to take out a few of these drivers the roads would be much safer.
Al P Duez
Jun 30, 08 18:33
Post #97 of 172 (424 views)
Re: was he justified in killing the burglars? [slowguy]
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The grand jury has spoken under the rule of law. Agree with them or not.
jec
Jun 30, 08 19:01
Post #98 of 172 (416 views)
Re: was he justified in killing the burglars? [jryan]
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yea,good point.the roads would be safer with people shooting at each other.thats a stretch guy and you know it.
slowguy
Jun 30, 08 19:18
Post #99 of 172 (412 views)
Re: was he justified in killing the burglars? [Al P Duez]
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"The grand jury has spoken under the rule of law. "
The grand jury has spoken by pretty much disregarding the law. Obviously, there's no argument about the fact that their decision stands. That doesn't make it right.
Slowguy
(insert pithy phrase here...)
ajfranke
Jun 30, 08 19:31
Post #100 of 172 (409 views)
Re: was he justified in killing the burglars? [slowguy]
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It would seem the grand jury made the decision that there was no reasonable expectation of a successful prosecution given the available evidence and the burden of the prosecution having to prove their case beyond a reasonable doubt.
I don't know why you would second guess them so readily. It seems like the right call at first glance.
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This forum is going to be a place of civil discourse, and those who wish to foment hate and discord are no longer welcome here. -- slowman 11/8/04
Art Franke
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