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Slowtwitch Forums: Lavender Room:
Lindsey Graham schools Eric Holder

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getcereal

Nov 19, 09 12:41

Post #1 of 62 (647 views)

Lindsey Graham schools Eric Holder	Can't Post

200 years of constitutional tradition thrown out the window by the most leftest administration our country has ever seen. You might not like Lindsey Graham but he is fighting the radical left that is working overtime at neutering our amazing country.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/..._miranda_rights.html

rick_pcfl

Nov 19, 09 12:42

Post #2 of 62 (646 views)

Re: Lindsey Graham schools Eric Holder [getcereal] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I heard that clip on the Mark Levine show last night. Awesome!

dvfmfidc

Nov 19, 09 12:50

Post #3 of 62 (628 views)

Re: Lindsey Graham schools Eric Holder [rick_pcfl] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Of course Holder didnt know the answer to the question, those lefties rewrote the history books for our public schools

chainpin

Nov 19, 09 13:14

Post #4 of 62 (598 views)

Re: Lindsey Graham schools Eric Holder [getcereal] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Glad someone posted this.

He got his ass handed to him, which is to say Obama got his ass handed to him.

Holder doesn't have authority to unilaterally dictate to the Department of Defense where a prisoner is brought to justice, but Obama does.

Funny though that Holder said that Obama didn't know about his decision.

How does that work if he--Holder--never had the authority.

I think we know how it works.

"I really wish you would post more often. You always have some good stuff to say. I copied it below just in case someone missed it." BarryP to Chainpin on 10/21/06

B Seges

Nov 19, 09 13:25

Post #5 of 62 (585 views)

Re: Lindsey Graham schools Eric Holder [getcereal] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I'm curious why you have no faith in our "amazing Country's" court system?

big kahuna

Nov 19, 09 14:09

Post #6 of 62 (551 views)

Re: Lindsey Graham schools Eric Holder [B Seges] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Perhaps because it's an amazing court system. And because of that, it'll be totally inadequate to the task at hand due to it not being designed or constituted to deal with matters of war. But that's because the Obama administration is bound and determined to treat a war on terrorism, or the acts committed by the terrorists in acting under a fatwa that declared war on the United States, as a venture in law enforcement. It didn't work when we prosecuted Ramzi Yousef and his confederates for the first WTC bombing. Man...treating them as just plain old (but really bad, so there's a difference) criminals put the fear of Allah into old Usama and his gang didn't it? Maybe those follow-on attacks on the Khobar Towers, the embassies in Tanzania and Kenya, the USS Cole and then, the topper; the second WTC attacks, were all just "harmless errors," right?

It's an inane thing we're going to do. And totally unnecessary. Most Americans aren't in favor of it (by something like a 2/3rds margin) and don't see why we need to do it. I could go on, but whose mind would be changed anyway? Therefore, I'm going to just lurk and continue to watch the line of reasoning by those in favor of this with an amused smirk and a fair bit of irony.

T.

trail

Nov 19, 09 14:17

Post #7 of 62 (542 views)

Re: Lindsey Graham schools Eric Holder [getcereal] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To:

most leftest administration our country has ever seen.

Most leftest? Mostest Leftest?

(leftmost)

Rodred

Nov 19, 09 14:19

Post #8 of 62 (541 views)

Re: Lindsey Graham schools Eric Holder [trail] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I think its mostest lefterist

Just kidding as I do most of my typing so fast its a wonder anyone can read it including me.

elund

Nov 19, 09 14:46

Post #9 of 62 (522 views)

Re: Lindsey Graham schools Eric Holder [getcereal] [In reply to]	Can't Post

From Media Matters
Zacarias Moussaoui tried, convicted, and imprisoned through federal justice system. Moussaoui was found guilty by a federal court jury for his role in the September 11, 2001, terrorist attacks. As The New York Times reported, the jury voted "to send him to prison for the rest of his days rather than condemn him to death for the carnage of Sept. 11, 2001." Moussaoui is serving his sentence at the ADX Florence prison, commonly referred to as Supermax, in Florence, Colorado.

"Shoe bomber" Richard Reid is serving life sentence in Colorado. On January 31, 2003, as The New York Times reported, Richard Reid pleaded guilty in federal court "to trying to blow up a trans-Atlantic flight with explosives concealed in his shoes" and "was sentenced today to life in prison." Reid had claimed "he was a member of Al Qaeda." Reid is serving his sentence at the Supermax facility in Florence.

John Walker Lindh serving sentence in Indiana. As CNN.com reported, on October 4, 2002, "Walker Lindh, the so-called 'Taliban American,' told U.S. District Judge T.S. Ellis III that he 'made a mistake by joining the Taliban' and 'had I realized then what I know now about the Taliban I would never have joined them,' " before being sentenced for his crimes. CNN.com reported that in July, Lindh pleaded "guilty to one count of supplying services to the Taliban and a criminal charge that he carried a rifle and two hand grenades while fighting on the Taliban's front lines in Afghanistan against the Northern Alliance." Lindh was once held at the Supermax facility and is now being held at the Federal Correctional Institute in Terre Haute, Indiana.

jar1635

Nov 19, 09 15:39

Post #10 of 62 (497 views)

Re: Lindsey Graham schools Eric Holder [B Seges] [In reply to]	Can't Post

and I'd be curious as to why you think it should be done? And, how you explain away the host of legal technicalities that are going to pose serious problems for the prosecution.

(This post was edited by jar1635 on Nov 19, 09 15:44)

big kahuna

Nov 19, 09 15:54

Post #11 of 62 (482 views)

Re: Lindsey Graham schools Eric Holder [elund] [In reply to]	Can't Post

From Media Matters

Stop right there. Using those mamzers immediately disqualifies you from further participation. That'd be like one of us righties trotting out Newsmax or WorldNetDaily, brah.

T.

mopdahl

Nov 19, 09 16:03

Post #12 of 62 (476 views)

Re: Lindsey Graham schools Eric Holder [big kahuna] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Yes, there are all of those terrorists running amoke in the US, freed b/c of our court system. Why I think I saw Timothy McVeigh down at the local In-N-Out grabbing a double-double with Yousef just last week.

This is one of the stupidest outrage-of-the-week that the right has been able to drum up.
____________
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.-- John Kenneth Galbraith

Tri N OC

Nov 19, 09 16:08

Post #13 of 62 (471 views)

Re: Lindsey Graham schools Eric Holder [mopdahl] [In reply to]	Can't Post

This is one of the stupidest outrage-of-the-week that the right has been able to drum up.

You do know that the decision to try KSM and some friends in civilian criminal court is disapproved by both right and left, right?

On the topic of Lindsey Graham's comments to AG Holder, can you articulate how to determine which terrorist gets tried in civilian court and which in military commissions? (Hint: AG Holder has not done so to date.)

Mike Lamb

Nov 19, 09 16:17

Post #14 of 62 (464 views)

Re: Lindsey Graham schools Eric Holder [mopdahl] [In reply to]	Can't Post

The question shouldn't be whether KSM could/should be tried in a civilian court. The better question is on what basis is the DOJ determining the detainees that receive a civil trial; a military tribunal; or nothing at all. Glenn Greenwald notes that there does not appear to be any core principal relied upon in determining the legal treatment of those in custody. That's where the 'outrage' should be directed. The contrived outrage from the right about the general principal of KSM receiving a trial is ridiculous, but there are legitimate concerns otherwise.

f/k/a mclamb6

burnman

Nov 19, 09 16:22

Post #15 of 62 (461 views)

Re: Lindsey Graham schools Eric Holder [getcereal] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Lindsey Graham 'schooling' anyone is hardly newsworthy. The sun shines on a dog's ass once in a while.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hunting is only a sport if your prey is human and he shoots back.

Rodred

Nov 19, 09 16:25

Post #16 of 62 (458 views)

Re: Lindsey Graham schools Eric Holder [burnman] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To:

Lindsey Graham 'schooling' anyone is hardly newsworthy. The sun shines on a dog's ass once in a while.

Youre right. Nothing to see here. These are not the droids you are looking for. This issue is no differetn than having a trial for a littler bug and the administrations position makes perfect sense.

Tri N OC

Nov 19, 09 16:43

Post #17 of 62 (444 views)

Re: Lindsey Graham schools Eric Holder [Mike Lamb] [In reply to]	Can't Post

contrived outrage from the right about the general principal of KSM receiving a trial is ridiculous,

Does this really exist? All of the stories I have heard or read speak to the issue of having a civilian court involved rather than a military tribunal, not that they should be put up against a wall and shot out of hand.

To the extent that the righties say "Give them a military trial and then shoot them" they are indistinguisable from the President who said give them a civilian trial and then execute them. (Of course, having the President pre-judge a case and determine the sentence does seem to beg the question of why have a trial, but that is a different thread.)

Edit for breaking news: The President is now distancing himself from his earlier comments saying that he will not be in the courtroom. Maybe somebody told him that tainting the jury pool might be a bad thing.

(This post was edited by Tri N OC on Nov 19, 09 16:46)

last tri in 83

Nov 19, 09 17:39

Post #18 of 62 (428 views)

Re: Lindsey Graham schools Eric Holder [getcereal] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I don't think I have been ever so proud of Sen. Graham.

_____________________________________________
No one appreciates my humor anymore. --Sphere

bhauser

Nov 19, 09 19:43

Post #19 of 62 (392 views)

Re: Lindsey Graham schools Eric Holder [Mike Lamb] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To:

The contrived outrage from the right about the general principal of KSM receiving a trial is ridiculous, but there are legitimate concerns otherwise.

So the outrage from the right is ridiculous because they can't possibly be smart enough to understand what's going on - they're just playing to their base (which is also too stupid to understand). However the outrage from the left is acceptable because they have all that book learnin'? Gotcha.

This group is doing plenty to create genuine outrage among the people - contrived outrage is not necessary.

big kahuna

Nov 19, 09 21:58

Post #20 of 62 (373 views)

Re: Lindsey Graham schools Eric Holder [mopdahl] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Yes, there are all of those terrorists running amoke in the US, freed b/c of our court system. Why I think I saw Timothy McVeigh down at the local In-N-Out grabbing a double-double with Yousef just last week.

Nobody's even brought up something like that. Where are you getting that -- and the whole Tim McVeigh thing (more moral relativsim?) from? The issue is the kind of message this sends to countries who don't have all that much love for us to begin with and will most cetainly look at what we're thinking of doing as being extremely weak, among other aspects.

This is one of the stupidest outrage-of-the-week that the right has been able to drum up.

I can always tell when the Right starts scoring some solid body blows when it comes to the inanity the Left is engaging in with something so tactically and strategically foolish as trials of designated enemy combatants in a civilian court (can you tell us just exactly how many officially designated enemy combatants have ever been tried in civilian courts, by the way?). You invariably come running into the discussion all aflame with "Left-eous" indignation to carry the water for the home team. You're learning well, young Jedi.

T.

jaws20

Nov 19, 09 22:09

Post #21 of 62 (373 views)

Re: Lindsey Graham schools Eric Holder [bhauser] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I recall after 9/11 the entire US Congress singing America the Beautiful on the steps of the Capitol.

Nine short years later, we have a democratic controlled government treating those responsible for the tragedy with kid gloves.

Did Bush foster so much venom that those in power are willing to ignore the context of this matter to prove some greater point [fn]?

The question is rhetorical, but apparently the answer is yes. I'm relieved that at least some voices are being heard which share my level of disgust.

[fn - not sure what the point is; promoting the rule of law or American due process is out as Holder admitted they wouldn't release KSM even if he's acquitted or the charges dismissed for lack of admissible evidence. If true, why have a trial?]

________________________________________________
To the extent anything above is construed negatively or offensively, it was so intended.

B Seges

Nov 20, 09 6:40

Post #22 of 62 (326 views)

Re: Lindsey Graham schools Eric Holder [big kahuna] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Forget the source, the facts from that source are accurate but of course you don't want to talk about it because it goes against your theory that this great countries court system can't convict anybody we must us the military's system to get any real work done...This is a slam dunk case and when KSM is put away forever you guys will be on to the next manufactured outrage hot button that you push on your spew-blogs....What a bunch of power mad babies you guys are, you've had the executive branch for 21 of the last 30 years, screwed the whole damn thing up for the rest of us and now you're crying?!?

jar1635

Nov 20, 09 7:31

Post #23 of 62 (294 views)

Re: Lindsey Graham schools Eric Holder [B Seges] [In reply to]	Can't Post

for starters, it's only the United States' court system that is involved. Not multiple. But, I'm sure you didn't mean to type "countries".

How is this a slam dunk case? Sure, they have an admission of guilt...which, unfortunately, won't be admissable because of all the procedural rules that were ignored when he was taken into custody - starting with him not being read his miranda rights. Any defense attorney, short of a public defender, is going to have a field day with this case.

When media matters writes up an answer for you, please share.

(This post was edited by jar1635 on Nov 20, 09 7:31)

Mike Lamb

Nov 20, 09 8:15

Post #24 of 62 (274 views)

Re: Lindsey Graham schools Eric Holder [Tri N OC] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Contrived outrage = thinking that New York can't handle the trial; that it creates a risk of terrorist attack; that it's somehow a slap in the face to 9/11 victims that he gets a trial; anything that is basically a slap in the face to the justice system. Those are all nonsense.

I think it's valid to point out that there does not appear to be a reasonable basis for putting KSM on trial vs. military tribunals or indefinite detention for others. I.e. more of a civil libertarian argument. I just don't see many on the right raising that argument. Instead, it's mostly fear mongering.

f/k/a mclamb6

Mike Lamb

Nov 20, 09 8:19

Post #25 of 62 (265 views)

Re: Lindsey Graham schools Eric Holder [bhauser] [In reply to]	Can't Post

The outrage is contrived because it's bullshit fear mongering and cheap attacks on the justice system. The outrage from the left is at least consistent from a civil libertarian view, which at least lends it more credibility. Civil libertarians were outraged at Bush's policies and they are equally outraged that Obama has adopted them either explicitly or implicitly. The right didn't bat an eye when a number of terrorists were put on trial or when Bush suggested that a trial would be appropriate for some terrorists. Thus, the right's scare tactics/outrage is entirely contrived, for the most part.

f/k/a mclamb6

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