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Slowtwitch Forums: Lavender Room:
Who is my candidate?

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Rocketboy

Oct 1, 04 6:32

Post #1 of 58 (482 views)

Who is my candidate?	Can't Post

I remain undecided in the presidential race. The debate only furthered my convictions. These guys are just packaged well by advertising firms hired to get their guy elected (I'm curious if both campaigns use the same firm).

At any rate, here's my list of what I deem critical for me. I'm an American and its my right to be selfish, dammit!

1. Economy - who is going to configure a long range plan for a balanced fiscal policy? At the current rate of spending it is evident that we need to either cut programs or increase taxes (or seek additional tax base. How do you do this without creating an adverse impact on consumption?

2. Health Care - the industry is inherently inefficient. Standardizing and streamlining processes will be to the consumers advantage in the long run. Dual rates for identical procedures are an effort to maximize uncollected losses, nothing else. For example, daughter one went to an urgent care facility in Florida last April. Bill for non-insured $1200.00, corrected bill for insurance plan $230.00. Collection rate on non-insured is 25%. They've just inflated their charge off. This is just one example of what I deem as a corrupt accounting practice.

3. Education - This is a can of worms, but, education is the key to making our country strong. We need skilled technicians, unskilled service class workers will not make our economy strong. We need a more robust longer ranged plan to develop each student so that they can be a productive member of society.

4. Military - We must have a strong military that is willing to wage war on those who choose to bring harm to the US or its citizens. Having said that, I believe that there is a plan for an end - game in Iraq. Unfortunately, its taking more time and resources than our media has the patience for.

5. Environment - I want to be able to swim, bike, and run freely without having to deal with polluted water, smog, increasing global temperatures and the fear of running out of water. As a scuba diver I've watched the slow destruction of reef systems off of Florida due to too many damn golf course. Give the EPA the liberty it needs to assess hefty fines. Use the proceeds of the fines to fix the problems (turn the golf courses into parks, etc).

6. Personal freedoms. I want to be able to say what is appropriate. Disagree with my political leaders. Write letters to editors of papers, online forums, etc. I want to continue to be able to own property. I want to be able to continue to own weapons of my choice. If I want to purchase an SKS and convert it to a fully automatic weapon, I should be able to. If I want to shoot at feral cats on my property because they are trying to eat the song birds on my property, its part of natural selection.

7. Welfare - Some people will never ever be able to take care of themselves. We as a society should provide for them. Then there's the fringe group that plays the system. These people have the ability to be productive members of society, but they cheat you and I as tax payers. If they are down and out, I'm not against giving them a jump start, but you don't get that year after year, you get it once for a limited time.

I'm sure I can on and on, but these are things I look for. With my two choices (Nader is a nuisance not a choice), I remain unconvinced. Politically, I guess I'd say I'm a fiscally conservative centrist. I think that most Americans are like me, but what do I know. Anyway, who should I vote for? Thomas Jefferson is dead.

Rocketboy

Schwingding

Oct 1, 04 6:48

Post #2 of 58 (478 views)

Re: Who is my candidate? [Rocketboy] [In reply to]	Can't Post

PeckerHead

Oct 1, 04 16:25

Post #3 of 58 (445 views)

Re: Who is my candidate? [Rocketboy] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Rocketboy, you definitely know what you want. :)

The fact that you mentioned sound fiscal policy and the environment as priorities makes your choice easy....John Kerry.

josieb

Oct 3, 04 20:28

Post #4 of 58 (432 views)

Re: Who is my candidate? [TTTorso] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Funny, I read his post and came up with the other guy.

minny expat

Oct 3, 04 21:41

Post #5 of 58 (424 views)

Re: Who is my candidate? [Schwingding] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Kerry is your man. I say this because you don't appear to understand the personal freedoms issues that numbers 1, 2. 5, and 7 present.

1. Governmental intervention in the marketplace causes higher prices, and fewer choices as the government decides which products have which prices. This effect is freedom limiting. It also causes pages and pages of other problems, like job losses due to minimum wage laws, etc... far too big of a subject to deal with here.

2. Health care - when the government gets involved in what doctor you can see. what drugs you can take, which ones can be prescribed, what kinds of treatment you can receive, etc....your choices are limited. Incentive to innovate is reduced, etc.. the effects are all freedom limiting.

5. Same thing, same reasons. The same EPA you want to fine big companies might decide you too are threat to that lake you enjoy swimming in.

7. When you are forced to pay for the lifestyles of others, you are a slave. The people that life off of you have no incentive to do otherwise. Your freedoms are not just limited, they are cut off.

Personal freedoms are not limited to firearms choices, but they are certainly limited by them.

Go vote for Kerry. He'll do his best to take care of you. I have no one to vote for. I seek a candidate who will do his best to leave me alone.

"you don't appear to understand the personal freedoms issues that numbers 1, 2. 5, and 7 present. "

Whatever!

1. Governmental intervention in the marketplace causes higher prices, and fewer choices as the government decides which products have which prices. This effect is freedom limiting. It also causes pages and pages of other problems, like job losses due to minimum wage laws, etc... far too big of a subject to deal with here.

----Since when does fiscal responsiblity and a balanced budget interfere in the marketplace? Try again.

2. Health care - when the government gets involved in what doctor you can see. what drugs you can take, which ones can be prescribed, what kinds of treatment you can receive, etc....your choices are limited. Incentive to innovate is reduced, etc.. the effects are all freedom limiting.

----No, it's Governmental intervention is not the evil you make it out to be. It may not be the best answer to all problems, all of the time. That IS the democrat knee jerk response. But it is, and has been, an answer prior to my existence. For that reason, I'll at least consider it. However, there are serious problems with the health care industry. Government action, of some sort, is needed. What about that Gov. of MN, using the state webpage to help facilitate the citizen's of MN in buying prescription meds from Canada. Is that Governmental intervention limiting your freedom? choices? or whatever you call the "incentive to innovate"? The gov't here sounds pretty innovative. Better follow that innovative government idea than be prostrate to the drug companies your post seems to love.

5. Same thing, same reasons. The same EPA you want to fine big companies might decide you too are threat to that lake you enjoy swimming in.

----Yes. Damn all those that fight to keep the planet clean. Whatever. Are you a big fan of Bill O'Reilly? Just curious. It is fairly common to be conservative in thought, and environmentally concerned. Your answer here appears to be party line.

7. When you are forced to pay for the lifestyles of others, you are a slave. The people that life off of you have no incentive to do otherwise. Your freedoms are not just limited, they are cut off.

---Believe it or not, there are people that will need public aid! Orphans, developmentally disabled, disabled, etc. The original poster was taking these people into consideration. Apparently, you've forgotten about them in your pursuit for personal freedom.

Personal freedom is great. It's wonderful. No other nation has as much of it as the United States. But should it go unlimited? Shall we sacrifice the above issues just to "leave you alone". Not on my watch.

..and no, I will NOT be voting for Kerry.

==================================
but I can deal with the angels, cause it ain�t me they�re here to claim. it�s a good night for blowing �em off til some other day

big kahuna

Oct 3, 04 23:21

Post #6 of 58 (422 views)

Re: Who is my candidate? [TTTorso] [In reply to]	Can't Post

John Forbes Kambodia(Kerry) licks the ballet slippers of Jacques Chirac, and both of 'em are cheese-eating surrender monkeys!!! (hee-hee)

My prediction for November 2nd: Bush, 53% of the vote. Kerry 46%. Nader and other candidates, 1%

By the way, the military, in a poll of over 4,000 full and part-time service members conducted in a confidential online setting by the Army Times Publishing Company, said that they would vote for Bush over Kerry by a margin of 73% to 18%, with the remainder undecided at this time.

The main reason given was Kerry's antiwar efforts upon his return from his service in Vietnam.

Just a few little factoids. Minus the whole "surrender monkey" joke, of course ;-)

Tony

....

Oct 4, 04 6:15

Post #7 of 58 (413 views)

Re: Who is my candidate? [big kahuna] [In reply to]	Can't Post

but then kerry will take the electoral college...

dems 1 - reps 1 :-)

Tom Demerly

Oct 4, 04 9:18

Post #8 of 58 (400 views)

Re: Who is my candidate? [Rocketboy] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Here's my score card:

Economy: Integration into the global economy is key for long range viability. Additionally, over-governing has driven costs and spending to absurd levels. This isn;t the fault of defense spending at all. Look at the pie chart on the back of your tax booklet: Defense is a small piece of that pie. The social programs are 2/3rds of the pie. Republicans are typically tighter with social program spending than democrates. While Bush could do more to integrate our economy into the world econmy he has been busy with two wars to fight. Despite the ballooning defecit and seemingly wanton spending on Iraq, etc. I give Bush the edge here.

Health Care: Not an issue for governement. It isn't a "right" like Kerry says. Keep governement out of it. I go Bush here too.

Education: One tragic and short sighted result of 9/11 and the Patriot Act is difficulty for students from outside the U.S. to gain admittance to U.S. schools. That has to change. We cannot practice isolationism. We have to practice integration and export of one of our most valuable products: Education. For U.S. citizens we need a president who will hold state governments accountable for their abysmmal educational systems. Kerry appears to have an edge here.

Military: Bush has let the military run the military. Kerry has tried to exploit absurd statistics about supply problems, etc. Kerry is wrong. At worst he may be intentionally misleading the public. Bush did in Afghanistan in 120 days what the Russians couldn't do in 11 years, and he he did it with incredibly small numbers of troops and resources. No one, including Bush, said Iraq would be easy. His biggest failing was the stupid aircraft carrier stunt and the "Mission Accomplished" rhetoric. Oops. Huge mistake. If that is his largest error, that is a great rack record. Advantage: Bush. Kerry is simply not qualified.

Environment: Kerry talks a good line, of course, but I would suggest they are roughly equal on this. Take your pick- either way, it will be low on the list of priorities since, sadly, it is already damaged way beyond any reasonable repair. I feel bad for our Grandchildren's grandchildren.....

Personal Freedoms: We're at war and will be for some time. We'll have to surrender a few minor and maybe not-so minor ones for a while. Welcome to the rest of the world. I have no issue with the Patriot Act, etc. I'm OK with Bush on this.

Welfare: I don;t know enough about this to have an informed opinion. I do like the notion of tying it to the economy. My slant is one of individual responisibilty and anything above that is a bonus. Take you pick here- I don't know.

In summary: Kerry offers a strong alternative to Bush if you don't buy into Bush's "Stay the course" doctrine on war on terror and Iraq. Here's the issue: Kerry promises a specific doctrine: Can he deliver on it? Neither you nor I know. We know what Bush can do good and bad- that is the advantage of the incumbent. These are delicate, dangerous times. I worry about the signal a change in leadership sends to other countries and our military: It says what we are doing has been wrong- or largely wrong. I am not ready to say that. I wanted a dip-lomatic solution to Iraq. I hoped it would happen, but it did not. Now, we have to live with the situation we (Bush) has created. He is a leader. He is a producer. He is a fighter. Kerry may be an excellent President in peace, but it will be a decade before we see peace again, and it is likely to get worse before it gets better.

For those reasons, I support Bush/Cheney.

PeckerHead

Oct 4, 04 9:23

Post #9 of 58 (399 views)

Re: Who is my candidate? [Tom Demerly] [In reply to]	Can't Post

-- Environment: Kerry talks a good line, of course, but I would suggest they are roughly equal on this.

This is a joke right!? LOL!!!! Bush is the worst environmental president in history. There is no comparison on this issue.

Tom Demerly

Oct 4, 04 9:31

Post #10 of 58 (395 views)

Re: Who is my candidate? [TTTorso] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Bush prevented a titanic environmental disaster in Iraq and has pushed requirements for double-hulled oil tankers significantly forward.

Mr. Tibbs

Oct 4, 04 9:37

Post #11 of 58 (391 views)

Re: Who is my candidate? [TTTorso] [In reply to]	Can't Post

What has Kerry done?

Mr. Tibbs will justify your sins.

PeckerHead

Oct 4, 04 9:39

Post #12 of 58 (391 views)

Re: Who is my candidate? [Tom Demerly] [In reply to]	Can't Post

-- Bush prevented a titanic environmental disaster in Iraq and has pushed requirements for double-hulled oil tankers significantly forward.

I bet he recycles his pop cans too. :)

PeckerHead

Oct 4, 04 10:26

Post #13 of 58 (382 views)

Re: Who is my candidate? [Mr. Tibbs] [In reply to]	Can't Post

If you want more info you can compare their records here: http://www.lcv.org/

The contrast couldn't be greater, or the environmental choice more clear.

Tom Demerly

Oct 5, 04 7:47

Post #14 of 58 (368 views)

Re: Who is my candidate? [TTTorso] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Comparison of environmental records is lost on me. Environmentalism seems to be a little badge hippies and college kids wear and 30 something yupsters pay lip service to.

It's a joke.

My infamous nasty ex-girlfreind from two years ago berated me for not recycling. She said "I'm very green in my house". This single 30-something female lived by herself in a 2000+ square foot house with an outdoor swimming pool, indoor hot tube, four car garage and automatic sprinkler system that watered the grass in the rain. She drove to work every day in her SUV, 2.7 miles. She also warmed the car up in the garage for 10 minutes most mornings- an environmental disaster.

But becasue she put her little orange box of bottle and papers on the curb every Tuesday morning she was an environmentalist.

That's typical of U.S. attitudes toward environmentalism. I am no different.

The environment is non issue to me. It is already destroyed well beyond repair. Now it is just a matter of damage control.

Shad

Oct 5, 04 8:27

Post #15 of 58 (359 views)

Re: Who is my candidate? [Rocketboy] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Vote for whomever you want just vote; you can�t complain if you don�t exercise your right. Here are a couple of facts for you though.

Campaign Firms typically charge 15%. That why you see 40 million dollar ads instead of 3 million dollar voter registrations. Most of these firms also package corporate lobbyists.

1. A large deficit will cause interest rates to increase and cause a decrease in capital available to the private sector. The government is competing for the same dollars and has a much better credit rating.

2. If I knew I'd being running for office. Health insurance (all insurance in my opinion) is widely overpriced because there isn't a good alternative.

3. My wife is a teacher and even she says education is a black hole. No matter how much money you put into the system it will always want more. I personally think we need more Math, Science, History, and PE.

4. I think we need a military that is used correctly; we shouldn't be pulling out of Iraq until it is rebuilt and on its feet militarily and economically. We need to learn the lesson of not rebuilding Germany after WW1 and rebuilding Japan and Germany after WW2. IF we pull out now we should increase military spending so that we will be ready to reinvade in 10 years.

5. I'm a flaming tree hugger (I was a logger in Montana though) and policies of this administration are pretty bad. I don't like Gale Norton's handling of most of the environmental issues (she did create a national monument in Colorado a few weeks ago and I liked that). I'm always amazed that this is a Democratic issue; the conservatives in this country should have it sewn up.

6. I don't know where you live but as long as your not shooting recklessly, kill whatever varmint you want. I shoot pigeons every Sunday morning with my Anschuetz. Anyone who is willing to give up freedom for security deserves neither (Ben Franklin - I think)

7. Welfare is tricky, you can't clean up the rolls without risking the removal of people who actually need the assistance and if you don't monitor it closely people will take advantage of the system, that�s a tough one.

I'm a flaming rabid left-winger but I'm fiscally conservative. I think that taxes are the price you pay to live in a free society, I also think our tax system is broken. What worries me the most is that people view politics in 4-year blocks and most problems need more time than that. I'm a populist when it comes to politicians. I think that elected officials should support all the people in their district not just the ones who voted for them. The two party system sucks bad with redistricting in most states there are no real elections anymore (both parties are to blame for that one) I would like to see at least two more viable political parties.

Mr. Tibbs

Oct 5, 04 8:40

Post #16 of 58 (351 views)

Re: Who is my candidate? [Tom Demerly] [In reply to]	Can't Post

"Environmentalism seems to be a little badge hippies and college kids wear and 30 something yupsters pay lip service to. "

Yes! To me it seems the more preachy and self righteous people get about how you behave as far the environment goes the less likely they are to do anything that counts.

"Environmentalism" is Greek for "full of shit"

Mr. Tibbs will justify your sins.

PeckerHead

Oct 5, 04 9:14

Post #17 of 58 (349 views)

Re: Who is my candidate? [Tom Demerly] [In reply to]	Can't Post

You obviously have the attitude that nothing you do can make a difference. Unfortunately, thats the same widespread attitude that has led to the destruction of environments. There are a lot of things you can do, but you have to make the choice. It sure is easier to do nothing.

-- Now it is just a matter of damage control.

If you really cared about damage control, you wouldn't be voting for Bush. I really think you should take a look at Bush's assault on the environment during this term. I think you'd have a tougher time staring at that picture on your desk.

PeckerHead

Oct 5, 04 9:17

Post #18 of 58 (347 views)

Re: Who is my candidate? [Mr. Tibbs] [In reply to]	Can't Post

-- Yes! To me it seems the more preachy and self righteous people get about how you behave as far the environment goes the less likely they are to do anything that counts.

There are always hypocrites. That doesn't make the cause any less important.

sjh

Oct 5, 04 11:37

Post #19 of 58 (339 views)

Re: Who is my candidate? [Tom Demerly] [In reply to]	Can't Post

http://encarta.msn.com/...r_Tax_Dollar_Go.html

"Social security benefits account for the largest percentage of federal spending (21.7%), followed by spending on national defense (17.4%). "

http://encarta.msn.com/...rnment_Spending.html

(This post was edited by robb on Oct 5, 04 11:56)

vitus979

Oct 5, 04 11:45

Post #20 of 58 (332 views)

Re: Who is my candidate? [robb] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Tom didn't say "Social Security," he said social programs.

According to your link, at least 61.6% of federal spending is for social programs. If you include veteran's benefits in national defense, the defense budget accounts for 20.1% of spending.

"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

sjh

Oct 5, 04 11:54

Post #21 of 58 (330 views)

Re: Who is my candidate? [vitus979] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I'm sure you have a point, but I doubt it applies to me.

I'm just quoting. I didn't place quotes around it though. I'll edit.

vitus979

Oct 5, 04 11:58

Post #22 of 58 (324 views)

Re: Who is my candidate? [robb] [In reply to]	Can't Post

My point is that Tom D was right in his assertion about government spending. He said that social programs account for about 2/3 of the budget, and you came back saying Social Security accounted for 21% of the budget. Your response to Tom was a non-sequitor.

That's my point. Get it now?

"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

sjh

Oct 5, 04 11:59

Post #23 of 58 (324 views)

Re: Who is my candidate? [Rocketboy] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I'm pretty much in line with you & Shad.

I think the best we can hope for is to slow the damage by voting a split ticket.

sjh

Oct 5, 04 12:05

Post #24 of 58 (320 views)

Re: Who is my candidate? [vitus979] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Uhh... SS does account for 21% of the budget. non-sequitur means "does not follow", so that doesn't apply here.

As I said, that was a quote that preceded the chart that Tom referred to. It's not a statement I made. I posted that because I don't think people know where their tax money goes. I doubt I have an argument with Tom concerning that. I agree with him that it's a small slice. I would also say that it's still a lot of money ... That may be something Tom & I would disagree on, don't know.

I think you're getting too worked up & reading things into my posts.

vitus979

Oct 5, 04 12:12

Post #25 of 58 (314 views)

Re: Who is my candidate? [robb] [In reply to]	Can't Post

SS does account for 21% of the budget. non-sequitur means "does not follow", so that doesn't apply here.

It does apply. Tom didn't bring up Social Security, he brought up social programs. Of which Social Security is just one.

Tom: "Social programs are 2/3 of federal spending."

You: "Social Security is 21% of the budget."

Do you really not see the disconnect?

"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

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