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Slowtwitch Forums: Lavender Room:
Wesley Clark

 
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cholla

Jul 1, 08 19:25

Post #126 of 192 (263 views)
Re: Wesley Clark [last tri in 83] [In reply to] Can't Post
In Reply To
Media Matters, nows there's an outfit I really trust.

If the Swiftboats vets website have provided false info, why hasn't Kerry legally shut it down?
  Can you disprove anything on the Media Matter site? Of course you can't. If any source of information contradicts your "beliefs," then you simply dismiss it as partisan. Makes it nice and easy to avoid reality. Your allegation of the site being untrustworthy or biased means nothing - it is actual lies that count.

I don't know why Kerry hasn't gone after them - I know I would. I suspect he feels that to do so would only draw more attention to those Republican liars. Here's another source (which compiles additional sources) that debunks the Swift Boat liars, but you will probably reject anything I post:

http://swiftvets.eriposte.com/whoserved.htm

http://swiftvets.eriposte.com/


slowguy

Jul 1, 08 19:30

Post #127 of 192 (262 views)
Re: Wesley Clark [last tri in 83] [In reply to] Can't Post
"If the Swiftboats vets website have provided false info, why hasn't Kerry legally shut it down?"

Because there's a big difference between knowing something is false, and proving that it is both false and intended to harm. Plus, if you're trying to make something go away, it doesn't pay to drag it back out into the public spotlight by way of what would be a very contentious lawsuit.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)


Slowman

Jul 1, 08 19:33

Post #128 of 192 (262 views)
Re: Wesley Clark [trio_jeepy] [In reply to] Can't Post
you i will reply to. and i'll write this one reply.

of all those who served in john kerry's swiftboat crew, only one joined the "swiftboat veterans for truth." that was stephen gardner. he was not on the boat during any of of the occasions when kerry earned his medals. all other members that served with john kerry, who were still alive in the last election, supported kerry, and are liberally quoted as saying that the swiftboaters claims were entirely false.

furthermore, not one of the art's swiftboat heroes were in the boat with kerry at the time kerry was involved in the incidents that earned him his decoration.

several respected daily newspapers, including the la times, the ny times, the washington post, investigated exhaustively what art's swiftboat heroes alleged and, these newspapers did what the swiftboaters did not do: they actually endeavored to interview all of those alive serving in kerry's boat with kerry.

neither the ny times nor the washington post could come up with any basis for disputing kerry's record. here's what the l.a. times said: "Not limited by the conventions of our colleagues in the newsroom, we can say it outright: These charges against John Kerry are false." The editorial argued this position on the basis that 'Kerry is backed by almost all those who witnessed the events in question, as well as by documentation.'"

there are plenty of other resources on the web that pull no punches, and call art's heroes outright liars, documenting over and over each and every one of them.

what bothers me is that john kerry, john mccain, barack obama, and for that matter mike huckabee, sam brownback, and many of the other presidential nominees, are men of fine character, and it just dumbs down the country when people like art franke stir the troglodytes with their hate speech. art is a hater. he thinks if one hears the lies enough, and repeatedly, the troglodytes will accept the lies as truth. unfortunately, he's right. some of them will.

LATE ADD: i might note that t boone pickens, who funded so much of the swiftboat lies in the form of tv ads, put out a challenge, the same one art has been putting out: prove that the swiftboat claims were lies. he offered $1 million to the successful applicant. several of those who were in the boats with kerry took pickens up on his promise, and offered the proof, complete with documentation, telling pickens he could give his $1 million to the veterans group of his choice. this past week pickens officially welched on the deal.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

(This post was edited by Slowman on Jul 1, 08 20:40)


mojozenmaster

Jul 1, 08 20:01

Post #129 of 192 (250 views)
Re: Wesley Clark [ajfranke] [In reply to] Can't Post
Art, allow me to offer some Mojozenmaster-Esque perspective and intervention on your behalf to the curmudgeonly and confused Slowman (and other forum libs)

John Kerry came back from Vietnam and testified before congress about supposed American atrocities. In 2004, Weasel-dick Clark endorsed Kerry and said his military service made him fit to be President.

John Kerry served 3 years and was a backstabbing, shit-talking motherfucker. His butt-hole is still ouching from how the swift boaters did him. But, that’s what you get from talking shit and losing your sense of proportion…..it will cause one to lose a presidential election.

John McCain’s captivity was longer than Kerry’s entire military career. During the time McCain was a POW, Kerry was in the service, out of the service and back home backstabbing his fellow naval officer.

Interpretation
One treasonous piece of shit serves 3 years and he’s worthy of a hearty Weasel-Dick Clark endorsement. The other guy serves honorably for about 23 years and his service does not make him qualified to be president.

Explanation:
Weasel-Dick Clark is a fucking idiot.

Anyway, it’s funny to watch the forum libs race to defend the douchebag who is causing their boy so much trouble, even as their boy seeks to distance himself from the douchebag who is causing him so much trouble.

One would think that liberals communicate better than that…….however, as smart as they are, the libs are busy validating Clark as BO’s top VP pick.


ajfranke

Jul 1, 08 20:07

Post #130 of 192 (242 views)
Re: Wesley Clark [Slowman] [In reply to] Can't Post
"people like art franke stir the troglodytes with their hate speech. art is a hater."

Quotes please.

I know you don't like having you quoted to you, but I have no such aversion.



____
This forum is going to be a place of civil discourse, and those who wish to foment hate and discord are no longer welcome here. -- slowman 11/8/04

Art Franke


trio_jeepy

Jul 1, 08 20:08

Post #131 of 192 (242 views)
Re: Wesley Clark [Slowman] [In reply to] Can't Post
I think the strange and surreal quality to it is that for the most part, Presidential candidates are well-known public figures, typically admired by a decent number of people and generally held in high esteem, regardless of partisan affiliation. But when they become official candidates, it suddenly becomes acceptable to not only impeach large parts of their biography, but their character, their patriotism, their integrity, and their immediate family members, turning them into people you would not only not trust with your children, but might spit on in the street if given the opportunity. These are things that most people wouldn't do to people they know personally, and would take violent offense to if done to them. Yet it's apparently fair game to attack Presidential candidates as not only unfit for office, but perhaps unfit for citizenship.

This is the absurdity we are faced with, and it ultimately behooves no one to raise pulses and stir the pot in this way. As I said elsewhere, Taibbi met a couple of lovely older women at McCain's New Orleans rally who were happy to talk about how they would like to contribute money to sending Michelle Obama "back to Africa." I strongly doubt they came up with this themselves; rather, they were incited to this level of rancor by the purer partisans among us, as defined by those who don't actually believe their own bullshit, but knows they can convince others of it. And I think thats the sad part about it - its ultimately driven by this cancerous cynicism, this willingness to demonize and paint people in the most extreme and inaccurate manners in order to convince the soft-headed among us of something they know is patently untrue. Nobody with half a brain believes that Obama is a Muslim, or that he hates America because of some stupid flag pin, or that he's secretly in league with Ahmadinejad. But there are plenty of people with full-sized brains who know they can convince others of this, regardless of how untrue it is. You have to be some kind of dirtbag to be this dishonest. But I'm sure they don't see it this way.

While I have no illusions of Obama being a post-partisan savior, I do think he has made every attempt to avoid this claptrap. You don't see his surrogates suggesting that McCain is soft-headed from his time as a POW, or that his service or imprisonment was not honorable, all charges made by his previous GOP opponents. You can deride Obama as some kind of cult, but I think that this is the core of his appeal - he has tried to remain above the fray, and he speaks in cool-headed, logical tones about what he thinks and why. I think it has a lot do why he has such appeal with higher-educated higher income Democrats.

But of course, if you ask "conservatives", they'll just say its all liberal guilt and racial totemism. That will justify anything they unleash upon him later in this campaign. And undoubtedly, they will.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security" - Benjamin Franklin
"Don't you see the rest of the country looks upon New York like we're left-wing, communist, Jewish, homosexual pornographers? I think of us that way sometimes and I live here." - Alvy Singer, "Annie Hall"


Slowman

Jul 1, 08 20:10

Post #132 of 192 (239 views)
Re: Wesley Clark [mojozenmaster] [In reply to] Can't Post
[snip]

troglodyte to the rescue ;-)

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman


Slowman

Jul 1, 08 20:17

Post #133 of 192 (237 views)
Re: Wesley Clark [trio_jeepy] [In reply to] Can't Post
"While I have no illusions of Obama being a post-partisan savior, I do think he has made every attempt to avoid this claptrap."

i'm pretty confident neither mccain nor obama will engage in any swiftboating. of course, you've got the groups that send around the emails saying that obama is a muslim, and a member of a sleeper cell, and all of that. mccain can't do too much about that. they're both jockeying for position, they're both courting the evangelical vote with fairly transparent and inartful ways. but each are decent men.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman


JSA

Jul 1, 08 20:18

Post #134 of 192 (236 views)
Re: Wesley Clark [Slowman] [In reply to] Can't Post
In Reply To
[snip]

troglodyte to the rescue ;-)
 
Well, there you elitist liberals go again, using words unfamiliar to the commen public. You are SO out of touch with the average American, which is one of your many issues. I guess that is what you get from spending 5 years at Harvard. Guess I am going to have continue to be bitter, clinging to my guns and religion, and googling Webster's online dictionary ...

... and yes, I did have to look it up ... ;-p

troglodyte: 1 : a member of any of various peoples (as in antiquity) who lived or were reputed to live chiefly in caves 2 : a person characterized by reclusive habits or outmoded or reactionary attitudes


_______________________________________________

"My better is better than your better." - LT, via Nike

The people who keep me moving:

TRANSITION - Get Moving!



ajfranke

Jul 1, 08 20:24

Post #135 of 192 (230 views)
Re: Wesley Clark [trio_jeepy] [In reply to] Can't Post
Your summary of Thurlow's testimony is not what is represented in your link. He remembers no small arms fire that day, only the mine attack. Others remember small arms fire. Varying reports of actions in battle are common. Even if you take as a given that Thurlow is wrong, that is not a lie, it is just his being wrong about one aspect of one battle.

This doesn't remotely resemble "Christmas in Cambodia" being "seared, seared" into Kerry's mind. That was made up, and he has retracted it.

The Swift Boat Vets most devastating ad was not about such minutia, it was just a replay of Kerry's own Senate testimony. It is well documented that all those characterizations of his fellow soldiers were lies.
____
This forum is going to be a place of civil discourse, and those who wish to foment hate and discord are no longer welcome here. -- slowman 11/8/04

Art Franke


Slowman

Jul 1, 08 20:37

Post #136 of 192 (227 views)
Re: Wesley Clark [ajfranke] [In reply to] Can't Post
"Quotes please."

art, may i be the first to admit, you're not the snide, sarcastic hater you were in the last presidential campaign. your vitriolic regular-as-a-morning-dump thread starters from 4 years ago are fewer this time around. and yet, there's your incessant referring of obama to the messiah. and, the obamessiah.

this obamessiah stuff is pure right wing hate speech, right out of the right wing idealogue playbook, from the right wing hate websites. just google the word you've chosen to use. go to the citations. see where this is coming from.

you've mellowed, yes, but sometimes you just can't help yourself. you're faced with this opportunity every day: discourse; or plant an image of hate. sometimes you choose discourse. alas, that doesn't seem to last for very long.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman


ajfranke

Jul 1, 08 20:58

Post #137 of 192 (219 views)
Re: Wesley Clark [Slowman] [In reply to] Can't Post
Wow. That is the best you can do. I grant my use of Obamessiah for a couple weeks was not me at my intellectual finest, but if that is the threshold for being classified by you as a hater and a spreader of hate speech, I hope you don't look in the mirror.

I have asked civil questions based upon specific quotes from Clark and yourself in this thread. I have received not one answer, but only insults and hate speech in return. Maybe your desire for intelligent dialog rather than partisanship would best be served by responding to my initial and well researched question. The only answer is that those statements of Clark's are impossible to square and can best be explained by his being a partisan hack. An admission like that would go a long way, but I guess it remains for you a bridge too far.

It is not so hard to do. Here is me again from 2004, with praise I do not consider to be faint:

He served his country well by all accounts that I have read. I wasn't on a gunboat. He is way ahead of me on that score.

And again:

Not to brownnose, but I have to second the Slowman. Kerry was on the gunboat in Vietnam, even if it was only for four months. I wasn't. He gets my respect for that.

And again in 2005:

Kerry was on that gunboat, and I never was. That puts him way ahead of me regardless of any after the fact details.

And yet again in 2006. I am nothing if not consistent:

I don't know what happened in that gunboat. I wasn't there, and I don't really care since Kerry gets an A in my book for ever being in that boat despite the fact it was only for a three month tour and despite the fact he tried mightly to avoid it.

____
This forum is going to be a place of civil discourse, and those who wish to foment hate and discord are no longer welcome here. -- slowman 11/8/04

Art Franke


Halvard

Jul 1, 08 21:12

Post #138 of 192 (212 views)
Re: Wesley Clark [Slowman] [In reply to] Can't Post
I think the logic is, you have to be a republican to be a true patriot. If you are a democrat and have a military record you are a “hate America first elitist”.

The way Max Cleland was treated by the republicans is a good example. He was accused for not being a patriot… as shown in this attack ad
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKFYpd0q9nE


Heia Norge :-)


last tri in 83

Jul 1, 08 21:48

Post #139 of 192 (207 views)
Re: Wesley Clark [Slowman] [In reply to] Can't Post
Why do you think the charges against Kerry stuck and continue to stick?

_____________________________________________
Conservative in exile.


Slowman

Jul 2, 08 6:18

Post #140 of 192 (188 views)
Re: Wesley Clark [ajfranke] [In reply to] Can't Post
"Wow. That is the best you can do. I grant my use of Obamessiah for a couple weeks was not me at my intellectual finest, but if that is the threshold for being classified by you as a hater and a spreader of hate speech, I hope you don't look in the mirror."

i'm not going to scour your posts for the best evidence of hate.

let me put it another way. you're a detractor. a deconstructor. by nature. that's what you are, that's what you do. every morning, much of the world gets up and says, what can i add today? what can i build? when you get up in the morning you ask, what can i tear down? who can i tear down. and then you commence your work.

instead of asking me to read your hateful posts, why don't you read them and ask yourself, what original thought did you come up with that adds value to the general knowledge of those who'd read what you write?


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman


Slowman

Jul 2, 08 6:21

Post #141 of 192 (186 views)
Re: Wesley Clark [last tri in 83] [In reply to] Can't Post
"Why do you think the charges against Kerry stuck and continue to stick?"

you mean, why is it that you all continue to believe the lies you retell, over and over? because you choose to. you're ike a bunch of eleven year olds in a circle jerk. you're the only ones doing it, and the rest of us are trying to avert our eyes.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman


ajfranke

Jul 2, 08 6:37

Post #142 of 192 (179 views)
Re: Wesley Clark [Slowman] [In reply to] Can't Post
Slowman, you need to examine your own record of hate speech. You will find plenty of it in this thread.

Your discussion here reflects poorly on you. You accuse me of hate speech and can provide no examples to back it up when called on your slander.

You accuse me of not being willing to give Kerry credit for his meritorious service in Vietnam. When I call you on that and provide six examples in which I did precisely that, you refuse to apologize for your drive by insult and instead move on to other non substantiated insults.

You now accuse me of only tearing down and never building. If I were to post pictures of the last apartment complex I built, would that change your opinion? Laughing at the thought.

You presume to appoint yourself the arbiter of where people fall along the fair minded scale. That is a laugh. I totally busted you with full documentation demonstrating the falsity of one of your many uncalled for person attacks, yet you refuse to acknowledge your error and instead proceed to compound it. That would not seem to be very fair minded of you. Where do you fall on your scale, I wonder?

All you ever do here is make accusations which you can never back up. Though you do serve the function of making MattinSF look objective by comparison, you really should confine yourself to the main forum where your experience, expertise and creativity have substantial value. Your inputs here have never been in danger of such a description.
____
This forum is going to be a place of civil discourse, and those who wish to foment hate and discord are no longer welcome here. -- slowman 11/8/04

Art Franke


Casey

Jul 2, 08 8:32

Post #143 of 192 (154 views)
Re: Wesley Clark [slowbern] [In reply to] Can't Post
As one of the workers of this country, I'm not seeing how Senator Obama has helped me or anyone I know.

Was Obama supposed to help you? How has Clinton, as a Senator in New York helped you?

When I hear him speak or read his speeches, I feel that he is looking down at me. I think that he thinks he is better than me because of his education.

So you think he thinks he is better than you because of his education. You are kidding right?

Supposedly, my career is on the line during this election. But I am going to have to see an entirely different side of Obama than what I have seen thus far before I vote for him.

Can you explain what John McCain has actually done for YOU?

I think people put too much importance on the President. If you think someone will be elected and suddenly everything will be done for you, you might be waiting a while. I assume you have been around for other Presidential elections, how have those turned out for you?


__________________________________________________

You sir, are my new hero! - Trifan 11/13/2008

Casey, you are a wise man - blueraider_mike 11/13/2008

Casey, This is an astute observation. - Slowbern 11/17/2008


BarryP

Jul 2, 08 8:37

Post #144 of 192 (151 views)
Re: Wesley Clark [MattinSF] [In reply to] Can't Post
"I am offended by the tag of elitist that has been hung on Obama and his supporters. The man is from the Southside of Chicago, he just finished paying off his student loans, he was a community organizer helping the poor and the workers of this country when he could easily have made millions on Wall Street.

I am offended that being well educated and well spoken has become a source of derision in this country.

Dumbya really has dumbed us down. "



No. He just tapped into the dumb that was already there.



Obama isn't an elitist. He's elite, and that bugs the shit out of a lot of people. I once heard it said that people will vote for the candidate most like themselves because they want to believe that *they* can do the f'ing job themselves. They can't stand the idea that being intelligent or well educated should be a qualification to run the country.
______________________________________________

-Barry Pollock (aka Baron Von Speedypants)
-Running Coach

RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

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last tri in 83

Jul 2, 08 8:47

Post #145 of 192 (143 views)
Re: Wesley Clark [Slowman] [In reply to] Can't Post
First off, I don't really know who is right and who is wrong in the swift boat thing as everyone has an agenda. It was almost 40 years ago, how can any of those guys remember specifics?

The reason is sticks to Kerry is that people a) believe it could be possible due to his after war activities or b) feel he deserved it due to his after was activities.

_____________________________________________
Conservative in exile.


slowguy

Jul 2, 08 8:47

Post #146 of 192 (143 views)
Re: Wesley Clark [BarryP] [In reply to] Can't Post
"Obama isn't an elitist. He's elite, and that bugs the shit out of a lot of people. I once heard it said that people will vote for the candidate most like themselves because they want to believe that *they* can do the f'ing job themselves. They can't stand the idea that being intelligent or well educated should be a qualification to run the country. "

Sen Obama may or may not be an elitist, but sometimes the things he says or does give the impression that he is an elitist. It's not merely a matter of the fact that he went to an Ivy League school. Obviously so did Pres Bush, and no one says he's an elitist. By all accounts, even being a C student at an Ivy League school places one in the elite with respect to the general population. The way he carries himself, speaks, and answers questions has left him open to this criticism. It may be a perception issue, but for a professional politician, that's a pretty big thing.

As for your second conclusion, I think you're probably right that some people vote for the guy most like them. I don't know if it's because they think they could do the job, or because they want someone in the job who identifies with and sympathizes with their concerns. Personally, I would really hope the President of the United States is not like most of the citizenry. Most of the citizenry spend their money and time on tabloids, video games, junk food, etc. I'd prefer to start from the ranks of the really smart and look for leadership than to start among the ranks of the average for the sake of identifying with the populace. Who really gives a shit if the Pers can bowl or drive a tractor? Is that, in any way, a part of his job? I hope not, otherwise, we are paying him way too much.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)


dave_w

Jul 2, 08 8:52

Post #147 of 192 (139 views)
Re: Wesley Clark [BarryP] [In reply to] Can't Post
    The elitist tag is effective in politics. The media has repeatedly played the game, I think it was GHWB who did not know the price of a gallon of milk, and just recently, McCain called on for not pumping his own gas. The pubs have the "elitist" narrative on the dems, and it plays to one extent or another with each iteration of candidate. Kerry lost points because of stories from his home state of arrogant ass-holishness, and GWB had similar stories, mostly from his younger years, floated about him too.

"It's all about self-esteem"


Slowman

Jul 2, 08 8:52

Post #148 of 192 (139 views)
Re: Wesley Clark [last tri in 83] [In reply to] Can't Post
"First off, I don't really know who is right and who is wrong in the swift boat thing as everyone has an agenda."

that's like that rumor that you introduced your pre-teens to pot and you wear women's underwear. i really don't know if that rumor is true or not. the fact that the folks who started those rumors never lived with you, never saw you actually tutoring your children in pot smoking, or wearing women's underwear, really is neither here nor there. this all happened a long time ago? who can remember? i just don't know. obviously you have an agenda. you want people to think you didn't introduce your kids to put and that you don't wear women's underwear. see, you have an agenda, and the other side has an agenda. who's right? and why do these rumors about you keep sticking? makes you wonder.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman


last tri in 83

Jul 2, 08 8:55

Post #149 of 192 (132 views)
Re: Wesley Clark [Slowman] [In reply to] Can't Post
but the undies are so comfy.

_____________________________________________
Conservative in exile.


Slowman

Jul 2, 08 9:07

Post #150 of 192 (126 views)
Re: Wesley Clark [last tri in 83] [In reply to] Can't Post
i don't blame you. i think the gender-specificity lines in underwear are blurring.

somewhere along the way, we've forgotten that candidates for public office are human beings, many of whom would represent the best and most accomplished among us, but few of whom are willing to run for public office because of just what happened to john kerry, and other sad episodes like it.

john kerry is, if i remember, the recipient of a silver star, a bronze star, and three purple hearts. max cleland got his legs and arms blown off, for god's sake. and each of them was savaged by unfair, false, partisan attacks in their most recent elections, and we've gotten to the point where we just think this is politics.

no reputable arbiter, not one, not a single one, has been able to justify or dignify the swiftboat attacks on kerry. every independent arbiter has labeled them unprovable, or downright false. every single person who served with kerry, and who is still alive, vouches for kerry's wartime record. mccain himself was treated this same way during the 2000 election cycle. that's why he stayed miles away from any criticism of kerry's service record.

as previously stated, there are those who add to the commonwealth. and there are those who tear at it, and try to bring it down for their own mean ends. i don't mind if you're a fiscal conservative, i am too. i don't mind if you're a social conservative, i am not, but i can see your point. but swiftboaters and those who stand in league with them are simply made of bad stuff, with base motives and if you want to consider what the antithesis of patriotism is, look no further than that sort of behavior.

to bring this full circle, one must ask whether wesley clark's comments on face the nation were swiftboat-like, or whether they were fair, or whether they were fair but inartfully expressed. i rather think the last of the three options, but reasonable people can disagree.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

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