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Wesley Clark
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slowbern
Jul 1, 08 13:05
Post #101 of 192 (326 views)
Re: Wesley Clark [sphere]
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Elitist? Maybe you guys missed this photo-op. I've never seen a man look more comfortable on a tractor in my life.
What? Is that a Ford 8N? Too shiny to be a worker.
Bernie
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There, Sphere, are you happy?
sphere
Jul 1, 08 13:12
Post #102 of 192 (318 views)
Re: Wesley Clark [slowbern]
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Ford 801 Powermaster.
I don't know...I think he looks quite comfortable up there. He's got the steely-eyed gaze of a hardscrabble arugula farmer down pat.
"The nice part about being a pessimist is that you are constantly being either proven right or pleasantly surprised." - George F. Will
last tri in 83
Jul 1, 08 13:13
Post #103 of 192 (313 views)
Re: Wesley Clark [sphere]
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LOL~!
_____________________________________________
Conservative in exile.
ajfranke
Jul 1, 08 13:47
Post #104 of 192 (302 views)
Re: Wesley Clark [Slowman]
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"As best I can tell, he [Kerry] served his country honorably and well, and he deserves credit for that service"
That was me from four years ago. It is one of many times I made similar comments.
Apology requested for this comment of yours:
if you had an ounce of fairmindedness you'd admit that both kerry and mccain served with dinstinction in the vietnam war. but you don't, so you won't.
Then I would like an answer to my question instead of a deflection coupled with a personal insult.
____
This forum is going to be a place of civil discourse, and those who wish to foment hate and discord are no longer welcome here. -- slowman 11/8/04
Art Franke
MattinSF
Jul 1, 08 14:00
Post #105 of 192 (295 views)
Re: Wesley Clark [ajfranke]
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"As best I can tell, he [Kerry] served his country honorably and well, and he deserves credit for that service"
That was me from four years ago. It is one of many times I made similar comments.
Apology requested for this comment of yours:
if you had an ounce of fairmindedness you'd admit that both kerry and mccain served with dinstinction in the vietnam war. but you don't, so you won't.
Then I would like an answer to my question instead of a deflection coupled with a personal insult.
You also supported and participated in the smear campaign waged by the Swiftboaters against John Kerry which just highlights how duplicitous you can be.
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HOPE is a plan that worked. CHANGE is a plan that worked. BELIEVE is a plan that worked.
last tri in 83
Jul 1, 08 14:04
Post #106 of 192 (289 views)
Re: Wesley Clark [MattinSF]
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Art was in Kerry's unit?
_____________________________________________
Conservative in exile.
slowbern
Jul 1, 08 14:22
Post #107 of 192 (281 views)
Re: Wesley Clark [sphere]
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I
don't know...I think he looks quite comfortable up there. He's got the steely-eyed gaze of a hardscrabble arugula farmer down pat.
I'll give him this, if he could drive that tractor like that, he has a grip and arms of steel. He was more convincing when he was bowling than he is sitting on that tractor.
Bernie
_______________
There, Sphere, are you happy?
cholla
Jul 1, 08 15:37
Post #108 of 192 (273 views)
Re: Wesley Clark [last tri in 83]
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Weren't the swiftboaters from Kerry's unit and those under his command? I'm not sure any of Art's heroes had much to do with it.
Only one of the many people in that group actually served with Kerry. And he couldn't offer anything of substance to undermine Kerry's heroics or awards. But, of course, you would have known that if you had the intellectual honesty of doing a quick Google search, or perhaps of paying attention to anything other than extremely biased right wing propaganda outlets.
last tri in 83
Jul 1, 08 15:55
Post #109 of 192 (264 views)
Re: Wesley Clark [cholla]
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hold on hot shot, here is what their website says
1. If most of Kerry's fellow Swift veterans don't support him, then who were all those guys with him at the Democratic Convention? They made it appear that Kerry has the complete support of his "Band of Brothers" from Vietnam.
John Kerry has been able to convince about 13 men who served on Swift boats in the Mekong Delta to support him, 7 or 8 of whom were at various times crew members on his own 6-man boat. Those are the men the Kerry campaign so prominently featured at the Democratic Convention. The
photograph
we have posted at SwiftVets.com shows Kerry with 19 of his fellow Swift boat OICs (Officers In Charge) in Coastal Division 11. Four OICs were not present for the photograph. Only three of his 23 fellow OICs from Coastal Division 11 support John Kerry.
Overall, more than 250 Swift boat veterans are on the record questioning Kerry's fitness to serve as Commander-in-Chief. That list includes his entire chain of command -- every single officer Kerry served under in Vietnam.
The Kerry game plan is to ignore all this and pretend that the 13 veterans his campaign jets around the country and puts up in 5-star hotels really represent the truth about his short, controversial combat tour.
The Swift boats fought in groups, so the other OICs who fought alongside Kerry know him well and can accurately describe what he did and did not do. In many cases Kerry's fellow OICs had a better perspective than his own crew members, since the latter had no way to determine whether he was following orders and how well he worked with his peers.
http://horse.he.net/.../index.php?topic=FAQ
_____________________________________________
Conservative in exile.
MattinSF
Jul 1, 08 16:01
Post #110 of 192 (257 views)
Re: Wesley Clark [last tri in 83]
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Art was in Kerry's unit?
No Art was at Princeton during the Vietnam War.
----------------------------------------------------------
HOPE is a plan that worked. CHANGE is a plan that worked. BELIEVE is a plan that worked.
last tri in 83
Jul 1, 08 16:04
Post #111 of 192 (254 views)
Re: Wesley Clark [MattinSF]
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He's that old??? Heck I was at Woodrow Wilson Jr. High when it quit.
_____________________________________________
Conservative in exile.
ajfranke
Jul 1, 08 16:09
Post #112 of 192 (250 views)
Re: Wesley Clark [MattinSF]
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The proper word is nuance, MattinSF.
Kerry served honorably and well, and I don't remember hearing anyone of note question that, certainly not me.
He also lied about his service (Christmas in Cambodia), and about those he served with (Ghengis Khan and the rest of his Senate testimony) and was completely busted. He was the one making multiple revisions to his biography and sending the author running for cover, not his accusers.
The title of this thread is Wesley Clark. I keep asking how Wesley Clark could be so enamored with Kerry's service and how it qualified him to be President of the United States, and yet think so little of McCain's service and that it in no way qualifies as a suitable experience.
I doubt I will get an answer, certainly not from you, but I will keep on trying. So far I have deflection, misrepresentation and personal insult from the forum owner, quoted in my signature below, but nothing else.
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This forum is going to be a place of civil discourse, and those who wish to foment hate and discord are no longer welcome here. -- slowman 11/8/04
Art Franke
MattinSF
Jul 1, 08 16:13
Post #113 of 192 (245 views)
Re: Wesley Clark [ajfranke]
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You keep banging your fist there Art, someone might pay attention to you sooner or later.
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HOPE is a plan that worked. CHANGE is a plan that worked. BELIEVE is a plan that worked.
sphere
Jul 1, 08 16:21
Post #114 of 192 (242 views)
Re: Wesley Clark [ajfranke]
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For what it's worth, it seems clear to me that his professional analysis shifts with the political tide. No question he's applying different standards to different candidates of different parties, which doesn't really surprise me, given his history in the political arena.
On the plus side, he just blew any chance he may have thought he had at the VP slot. That's good for everyone, IMO.
"The nice part about being a pessimist is that you are constantly being either proven right or pleasantly surprised." - George F. Will
cholla
Jul 1, 08 16:32
Post #115 of 192 (237 views)
Re: Wesley Clark [last tri in 83]
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In Reply To
hold on hot shot, here is what their website says
1. If most of Kerry's fellow Swift veterans don't support him, then who were all those guys with him at the Democratic Convention? They made it appear that Kerry has the complete support of his "Band of Brothers" from Vietnam.
John Kerry has been able to convince about 13 men who served on Swift boats in the Mekong Delta to support him, 7 or 8 of whom were at various times crew members on his own 6-man boat. Those are the men the Kerry campaign so prominently featured at the Democratic Convention. The
photograph
we have posted at SwiftVets.com shows Kerry with 19 of his fellow Swift boat OICs (Officers In Charge) in Coastal Division 11. Four OICs were not present for the photograph. Only three of his 23 fellow OICs from Coastal Division 11 support John Kerry.
Overall, more than 250 Swift boat veterans are on the record questioning Kerry's fitness to serve as Commander-in-Chief. That list includes his entire chain of command -- every single officer Kerry served under in Vietnam.
The Kerry game plan is to ignore all this and pretend that the 13 veterans his campaign jets around the country and puts up in 5-star hotels really represent the truth about his short, controversial combat tour.
The Swift boats fought in groups, so the other OICs who fought alongside Kerry know him well and can accurately describe what he did and did not do. In many cases Kerry's fellow OICs had a better perspective than his own crew members, since the latter had no way to determine whether he was following orders and how well he worked with his peers.
http://horse.he.net/.../index.php?topic=FAQ
Ummmm......NO. If you listen to liars, they will continue to tell you lies.
http://mediamatters.org/items/200408130007
The anti-Kerry group
Swift Boat Veterans for Truth
claims
254 members
, and O'Neill, the group's co-founder, claimed on the August 12 edition of CNN's
Crossfire
that there "are more than 60 people that served with John Kerry that contributed to this book [
Unfit for Command
]." While the group's members are veterans of the Vietnam War and may have served at the same time as Kerry or even
near
Kerry, Steve Gardner is the only one of the men attacking Kerry to have actually served on the swift boats that Kerry commanded. Of those veterans who served under Kerry, the Kerry-Edwards '04 campaign has pointed out that 11 of the 12 support him, many of whom appeared with Kerry in Boston at the Democratic National Convention, according to an August 4 Scripps Howard News Service
report
.
last tri in 83
Jul 1, 08 16:57
Post #116 of 192 (231 views)
Re: Wesley Clark [cholla]
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Media Matters, nows there's an outfit I really trust.
If the Swiftboats vets website have provided false info, why hasn't Kerry legally shut it down?
_____________________________________________
Conservative in exile.
Slowman
Jul 1, 08 17:05
Post #117 of 192 (226 views)
Re: Wesley Clark [ajfranke]
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you have many fine traits. smart. loyal. steadfast. but fair-minded you are not. on a scale of 1 to 10, with 1 being fair-minded, 10 being partisan, you're a 9.25. nothing wrong with that. it's just what you are. no offense intended.
Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
ajfranke
Jul 1, 08 17:06
Post #118 of 192 (226 views)
Re: Wesley Clark [sphere]
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On the plus side, he just blew any chance he may have thought he had at the VP slot. That's good for everyone, IMO
.
I didn't think he had any real shot, but I do agree that if he is gone, that is a very good thing.
Clark also served his country well, but he got promoted too far. The last thing we need is for him to get another promotion.
The General who refused his order to block the Soviets from seizing the airport during the Serbian war told him that he was not obeying and was not going to start WWIII for him. Clark is not the guy you want setting military policy.
We should all expect that Obama will be doing a reevaluation soon of his Iraq policy as he has done with campaign funding, NAFTA, FISA and other issues. With the nomination locked up, he can now take the MattinSFs for granted. They aren't going anywhere.
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This forum is going to be a place of civil discourse, and those who wish to foment hate and discord are no longer welcome here. -- slowman 11/8/04
Art Franke
ajfranke
Jul 1, 08 17:12
Post #119 of 192 (223 views)
Re: Wesley Clark [Slowman]
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It is amusing hearing you talk about being fair minded in this context in which I showed you to be completely wrong and asked only for an apology and an answer to my simple question.
It is not too late. Second request:
if you had an ounce of fairmindedness you'd admit that both kerry and mccain served with dinstinction in the vietnam war. but you don't, so you won't. --slowman 7/1/2008
"As best I can tell, he [Kerry] served his country honorably and well, and he deserves credit for that service" -- ajfranke 2004
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This forum is going to be a place of civil discourse, and those who wish to foment hate and discord are no longer welcome here. -- slowman 11/8/04
Art Franke
Slowman
Jul 1, 08 17:24
Post #120 of 192 (217 views)
Re: Wesley Clark [ajfranke]
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"
It is amusing hearing you talk about being fair minded in this context in which I showed you to be completely wrong and asked only for an apology and an answer to my simple question."
you aren't hearing me talk. you're reading me write. you're an extreme partisan. you'd twist any fact or thought to suit your agenda. you're only doing this to save us from ourselves, i know, and i appreciate the sentiment. nevertheless, i'm not having any.
"I
t is not too late. Second request"
no need to offer me any more chances. you've offered me two chances to see things your way. you've been offered two thousand chances to actually be a fair-minded arbiter on just about any political subject. neither of us are budging.
Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
ajfranke
Jul 1, 08 17:39
Post #121 of 192 (212 views)
Re: Wesley Clark [Slowman]
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Dan, I asked you a very simple question about Clark asking for your opinion about two specific quotes.
You responded with a personal insult, easily disproven. I offered the proof to show your personal insult for what it was, and politely asked for an apology and an answer to my simple question.
Your refusal to give it says a lot about you, none of it good.
____
This forum is going to be a place of civil discourse, and those who wish to foment hate and discord are no longer welcome here. -- slowman 11/8/04
Art Franke
Slowman
Jul 1, 08 18:00
Post #122 of 192 (208 views)
Re: Wesley Clark [ajfranke]
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"
Dan, I asked you a very simple question about Clark asking for your opinion about two specific quotes."
art, you have spent the last four years defending your swiftboater heroes as they attacked and defamed a presidential candidate. i would say shame on you, except i already have, and you have shamed yourself over four years of sticking to your insulting, demeaning ways. you offer a quote of faint praise in order to deflect attention from your base behavior. you want me to fawn over you, and congratulate you like a parent congratulates a 2 year old for making a good potty. sorry, art, i'm not going to fall for your bait. longtimers on the forum know what you're all about.
Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
ajfranke
Jul 1, 08 18:30
Post #123 of 192 (199 views)
Re: Wesley Clark [Slowman]
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It is pretty clear who is insulting and demeaning here. That would be you. I simply asked you to admit you were wrong and to answer a question. Both were a bridge too far.
Sadly, that is no surprise.
Since you seem to continue to have a burr up your butt about the Swift Boat Vets, maybe you can finally fill us in on just what lies it was they told. I have been waiting very patiently:
You're asking me to produce concrete evidence that they are lying. i believe there are others who're laying the groundwork to produce just that evidence, and since you've waited two years i think it's not too much to ask that we both wait a little longer and allow them to do a much better job than i could do myself.
-- slowman 6/3/2006
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This forum is going to be a place of civil discourse, and those who wish to foment hate and discord are no longer welcome here. -- slowman 11/8/04
Art Franke
Slowman
Jul 1, 08 18:37
Post #124 of 192 (197 views)
Re: Wesley Clark [ajfranke]
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"
Since you seem to continue to have a burr up your butt about the Swift Boat Vets, maybe you can finally fill us in on just what lies it was they told."
i rest my case. over and out. write your final slur.
Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
trio_jeepy
Jul 1, 08 18:50
Post #125 of 192 (193 views)
Re: Wesley Clark [ajfranke]
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I'd call you a jackass, but that's just what you want. You always resort to this - wanting someone else to prove what you already know is true, simply as a disingenuous tactic. And then you heap on the insults to their intelligence, or attack what you perceive is their lack of "experience." But its everybody else that's really insulting, isn't it?
You want proof. I know you've already heard this, but you are either too stubborn or too partisan to admit it, so here it is for public consumption.
Larry Thurlow, one of the more prominent Swiftboaters, has argued that Kerry didn't deserve one of his Bronze Stars because it was for a battle that never occurred. Strangely enough, Thurlow himself was awarded a Bronze Star for this alleged phantom battle. I think the lesson here is not that Navy records are obviously faulty, but that if you're going to participate prominently in a political hit job, it helps not to be a fucking idiot. I'm sure there are other examples; I just don't care enough to dig them up.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/...13267-2004Aug18.html
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"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security" - Benjamin Franklin
"Don't you see the rest of the country looks upon New York like we're left-wing, communist, Jewish, homosexual pornographers? I think of us that way sometimes and I live here." - Alvy Singer, "Annie Hall"
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