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Wesley Clark
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Al P Duez
Jul 1, 08 8:48
Post #51 of 192 (573 views)
Re: Wesley Clark [Slowman]
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Comments such as Clark's will end up helping McCain
It's not that Clark's analysis is off base; it's that it's so narrowminded and obvious that it doesn't do any damage to McCain. Of course spending five years as a POW doesn't automatically qualify McCain to take over the free world. No one, not even McCain himself, would argue that it does.
"Hiring a president isn't like hiring an accountant; there's no job like the presidency, so it's an informed leap of faith. To suggest that McCain's searing Vietnam experience--especially his refusal, after years of torture, to accept Vietnamese offers of early release--doesn't tell us something about his character, his sense of duty, his determination and therefore what sort of person he is and what sort of president he would be is simply absurd. It's not the whole picture. It's not his one and only qualification. But, like Obama's decision to forgo lucrative law jobs after college and work as a community organizer in Chicago, it's undeniably, fundamentally relevant."
(This post was
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last tri in 83
Jul 1, 08 8:49
Post #52 of 192 (572 views)
Re: Wesley Clark [Casey]
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Bush in 2000 and 2004. I wasn't as concerned in 2000 about defense. Something happened on 9-11-01 that moved defense up on my priority list.
_____________________________________________
Conservative in exile.
last tri in 83
Jul 1, 08 8:56
Post #53 of 192 (560 views)
Re: Wesley Clark [Slowman]
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that "command experience in defense," fine, but murtha, kerry, inouye, and 30 or 40 other legislators have equal or greater experience. no matter. you can select the candidate of your choice.
What does it matter if those guys aren't running?
(I'll cave on the nutty comments and move them to "ill-advised." My personal bias against Gen. Clark is showing.)
_____________________________________________
Conservative in exile.
BarryP
Jul 1, 08 8:57
Post #54 of 192 (559 views)
Re: Wesley Clark [last tri in 83]
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Something happened on 9-11-01 that moved defense up on my priority list.
I assume then that you would pick John Kerry or Wesley Clark over Mitt Romney if that was your choice.
______________________________________________
-Barry Pollock (aka Baron Von Speedypants)
-Running Coach
RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
or you can search Runtraining## where ## is a number from 1-16.
Slowman
Jul 1, 08 8:59
Post #55 of 192 (556 views)
Re: Wesley Clark [Al P Duez]
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"
Of course spending five years as a POW doesn't automatically qualify McCain to take over the free world. No one, not even McCain himself, would argue that it does."
i think the mccain campaign is arguing precisely that, and arguing it quite effectively, through its imagery and allusion: that his vietnam experience has beknighted him with a special quality to be president. clark is taking a hammer to that. it's not an elegant attack, but it's a useful one in the context of this national debate. it's like taking a hard look at bret favre's career numbers, and questioning whether he's the equal of dan marino. not a lot of folks are going to take kindly to hard, pedestrian questions asked of an icon.
but, are these questions "nutty?" i haven't seen any nutty comments from wesley clark.
Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
Al P Duez
Jul 1, 08 9:06
Post #56 of 192 (550 views)
Re: Wesley Clark [Slowman]
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Nutty if he is trying to help Obama.
last tri in 83
Jul 1, 08 9:11
Post #57 of 192 (547 views)
Re: Wesley Clark [Slowman]
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Dan, why is Clark, a big Clinton supporter, now asking the "hard pedestrian questions" for BHO?
_____________________________________________
Conservative in exile.
BarryP
Jul 1, 08 9:18
Post #58 of 192 (539 views)
Re: Wesley Clark [last tri in 83]
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Dan, why is Clark, a big Clinton supporter, now asking the "hard pedestrian questions" for BHO?
Last I checked, they are all Democrats. Is there something that's confusing you?
______________________________________________
-Barry Pollock (aka Baron Von Speedypants)
-Running Coach
RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
or you can search Runtraining## where ## is a number from 1-16.
last tri in 83
Jul 1, 08 9:47
Post #59 of 192 (517 views)
Re: Wesley Clark [BarryP]
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Barry, you are a funny guy.
_____________________________________________
Conservative in exile.
Al P Duez
Jul 1, 08 9:53
Post #60 of 192 (511 views)
Re: Wesley Clark [Slowman]
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"i think the mccain campaign is arguing precisely that,.."
I think he is arguing his military record is a part of a whole and he is not saying it is in and of itself the only experience that counts. Not unlike JFKs PT109 experience and how that plays with the voting public.
"...it's a useful one in the context of this national debate."
This tact will hurt Obama and will galvenize support behind McCain, particularly with highly sought after conservative Dems and independents. Hence, yes, they represent nutty questions.
Slowman
Jul 1, 08 10:03
Post #61 of 192 (503 views)
Re: Wesley Clark [Al P Duez]
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"
Hence, yes, they represent nutty questions."
remember when, during the CNN televised debate between the republican primary candidates, wolf blitzer asked for a show of hands of those who believe in the literal interpretation of the bible? what i was looking for was a candidate to whip a copy of the constitution out of his back pocket, hold it up, and say, "while the question you asked is relevant in certain circles, a presidential debate is not one of them. this is the book i believe in cover to cover, in its literal interpretation, and that's the most relevant answer to your inappropriate question."
but, that would've been politically hard to hear. and so, by your own metric, it would've been a nutty thing to say. would that there were more people in the public arena saying more of these nutty things. maybe a little more nuttiness is the antidote for our body politic.
Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
dave_w
Jul 1, 08 10:04
Post #62 of 192 (498 views)
Re: Wesley Clark [Slowman]
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"
Of course spending five years as a POW doesn't automatically qualify McCain to take over the free world. No one, not even McCain himself, would argue that it does."
i think the mccain campaign is arguing precisely that, and arguing it quite effectively, through its imagery and allusion: that his vietnam experience has beknighted him with a special quality to be president. clark is taking a hammer to that. it's not an elegant attack, but it's a useful one in the context of this national debate. it's like taking a hard look at bret favre's career numbers, and questioning whether he's the equal of dan marino. not a lot of folks are going to take kindly to hard, pedestrian questions asked of an icon.
but, are these questions "nutty?" i haven't seen any nutty comments from wesley clark.
Good God, you dems need to stop, you look like utter raging morons. McCain has an extensive military service that includes much besides 5 years as a POW. His many years in the senate, multitudes of successful efforts working across the aisle, and ranking position on the armed services committee, add to the military experience to make him undoubtedly the most qualified, on paper, to be POTUS. The Obama campaign knows this and is thus running on character and judgement. Why can't you just admit that McCain "wins" in certain areas, and Obama in others, those others being what you deem most important? It's just comical to see the efforts to strip McCain of his strengths, rather than see well laid out support for Obama. Oh well, it's a wes Clark thread, and I've already pointed out the folly of fully attaching you wagon to him.
ps. this is where Dan pills out the Independent card. :)
"It's all about self-esteem"
Slowman
Jul 1, 08 10:08
Post #63 of 192 (493 views)
Re: Wesley Clark [dave_w]
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"
Good God, you dems need to stop, you look like utter raging morons.
"
nice. while i'm not a democrat, i'm indebted to fellows like you for reminding why i'm not a republican either.
Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
Al P Duez
Jul 1, 08 10:17
Post #64 of 192 (480 views)
Re: Wesley Clark [Slowman]
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I can't believe you are defending Clark, even if its just as an advocate for Obama and getting him elected. Seeming to disparage McCain's war heroics in an election is foolish/nutty/stupid etc. PERIOD. Some nuttiness or honesty may be warranted given the question but this is not one of them.
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BarryP
Jul 1, 08 10:19
Post #65 of 192 (474 views)
Re: Wesley Clark [dave_w]
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Good God, you dems need to stop, you look like utter raging morons. McCain has an extensive military service that includes much besides 5 years as a POW. His many years in the senate, multitudes of successful efforts working across the aisle, and ranking position on the armed services committee, add to the military experience to make him undoubtedly the most qualified, on paper, to be POTUS.
So someone clarifying that his military experience does not include making leadership decisions involving military actions is unwarranted? I'll be looking for your post regarding moronic republicans when they attempt to clarify an element in Obama's platform that may be overstated.
______________________________________________
-Barry Pollock (aka Baron Von Speedypants)
-Running Coach
RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
or you can search Runtraining## where ## is a number from 1-16.
MattinSF
Jul 1, 08 10:23
Post #66 of 192 (470 views)
Re: Wesley Clark [Al P Duez]
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Clark's comments may not be politically expedient, and we can wait to see if that plays out to be the case, but they are not nutty or without logic.
Call me nutty but I'd rather have a President with 5 years in Harvard than 5 years in a POW camp.
I think Wesley Calrk has been around enough pilots and enough Presidents to know if the qualities required for the former translate well to the latter. He is entitled to his opinion, and he has earned the right and is more qualified than anyone else to make the comments.
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HOPE is a plan that worked. CHANGE is a plan that worked. BELIEVE is a plan that worked.
(This post was
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dave_w
Jul 1, 08 10:24
Post #67 of 192 (469 views)
Re: Wesley Clark [Slowman]
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In Reply To
"
Good God, you dems need to stop, you look like utter raging morons.
"
nice. while i'm not a democrat, i'm indebted to fellows like you for reminding why i'm not a republican either.
LOL, obviously you didn't even read the whole thing. Hey, don't forget some of the other effective arguments made in this thread:
mattinsf responding to some facts - you are supporting McCain because he's republican!
trio-jeepy responding to anything said about Obama -
[read: he's BLACK]
speaks well of the dem side.
"It's all about self-esteem"
dave_w
Jul 1, 08 10:31
Post #68 of 192 (461 views)
Re: Wesley Clark [BarryP]
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So someone clarifying that his military experience does not include making leadership decisions involving military actions is unwarranted? I'll be looking for your post regarding moronic republicans when they attempt to clarify an element in Obama's platform that may be overstated.
Meh, not a bad point, but the pile on to make McCain out as completely bereft of qualifications is what makes the original point almost lost. Just another topic, that might be useful to discuss, lost to partisanship here in the LR.
"It's all about self-esteem"
trio_jeepy
Jul 1, 08 10:40
Post #69 of 192 (454 views)
Re: Wesley Clark [dave_w]
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So someone clarifying that his military experience does not include making leadership decisions involving military actions is unwarranted? I'll be looking for your post regarding moronic republicans when they attempt to clarify an element in Obama's platform that may be overstated.
Meh, not a bad point, but the pile on to make McCain out as completely bereft of qualifications is what makes the original point almost lost. Just another topic, that might be useful to discuss, lost to partisanship here in the LR.
There's your straw man. Nobody is arguing that he is "completely bereft" of qualifications as you claim. They are simply asking you to justify why being a POW is suddenly a qualification for President. Or military service, for that matter. The latter certainly doesn't hurt, but its certainly not sufficient, nor a requirement. It appears that you would certainly not vote for Wes Clark for President, but his military and leadership credentials likely trump those of McCain, so you are going to need to parse your requirements more carefully.
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"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security" - Benjamin Franklin
"Don't you see the rest of the country looks upon New York like we're left-wing, communist, Jewish, homosexual pornographers? I think of us that way sometimes and I live here." - Alvy Singer, "Annie Hall"
last tri in 83
Jul 1, 08 10:44
Post #70 of 192 (450 views)
Re: Wesley Clark [Slowman]
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Dan, I was thinking about this during my run. Why shouldn't McC use his Viet Nam experience in his commercials/resume? It's the truth, it part of who he is just like Ike, Kennedy, Carter, Kerry. You seem to imply it should be off limits.
_____________________________________________
Conservative in exile.
MattinSF
Jul 1, 08 10:44
Post #71 of 192 (449 views)
Re: Wesley Clark [dave_w]
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Dave, until Joe Lieberman wispered it in his ear John McCain didn't know the difference between a Sunni and a Shia...tell me again how his pilot experience from 30 years ago is useful in this war on terror? tell me again how he is sooo much better qualified to lead us in this fight than Senator Obama?
You guys love to thump your chests and hail military experience as the only way a President can have the fire in his belly to make the tough decisions. Someone needs to tell that to FDR...another Columbia/Harvard "elitist" intellectual like Obama as coincidence would have it.
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HOPE is a plan that worked. CHANGE is a plan that worked. BELIEVE is a plan that worked.
(This post was
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by MattinSF on Jul 1, 08 10:46)
ajfranke
Jul 1, 08 10:48
Post #72 of 192 (443 views)
Re: Wesley Clark [Slowman]
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If McCain's military experiences still leave him untested and untried in Clark's eyes, can you explain why Clark thought Kerry's experiences were such an outstanding credential for him to be president?
Repeated from Clark's convention speech in 2004:
John Kerry has heard the thump of enemy mortars.
He's seen the flash of the tracers. He's lived the values of service and sacrifice. In the Navy, as a prosecutor, as a senator, he proved his physical courage under fire. And he's proved his moral courage too.
John Kerry fought a war, and I respect him for that. And he came home to fight a peace. And I respect him for that, too.
John Kerry's combination of physical courage and moral values is my definition of what we need as Americans in our commander in chief. And John Edwards with his leadership and extraordinary intelligence, he's going to be a great member of that command team.
John Kerry is a man who in time of war can lead us as a warrior, but in times of peace, he will heed the call of scripture to lead us in beating swords into plowshares.
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This forum is going to be a place of civil discourse, and those who wish to foment hate and discord are no longer welcome here. -- slowman 11/8/04
Art Franke
trio_jeepy
Jul 1, 08 10:53
Post #73 of 192 (442 views)
Re: Wesley Clark [last tri in 83]
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Dan, I was thinking about this during my run. Why shouldn't McC use his Viet Nam experience in his commercials/resume? It's the truth, it part of who he is just like Ike, Kennedy, Carter, Kerry. You seem to imply it should be off limits.
There's no reason its off limits. But that doesn't give him the right to get righteous indignation when people have difficulty drawing a straight line between his service and experience and his ability to manage contemporary situations not only in national security, but economics, environment, diplomacy, etc. And I suspect he would have difficulty drawing that straight line for voters as well, but he's certainly free to run ads with that sort of mom, apple pie, feel good vibe. But he shouldn't be surprised when people ask, what does this have to do with anything? If he wants to argue that "Obama can't be trusted" about campaign finance, despite knowing that Repub 527 groups are ginning up to go after him, then he should be ready to have people come after him about how being a POW somehow qualifies him, especially since he's so fond of making it part of the conversation.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security" - Benjamin Franklin
"Don't you see the rest of the country looks upon New York like we're left-wing, communist, Jewish, homosexual pornographers? I think of us that way sometimes and I live here." - Alvy Singer, "Annie Hall"
BarryP
Jul 1, 08 10:58
Post #74 of 192 (437 views)
Re: Wesley Clark [dave_w]
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Meh, not a bad point, but the pile on to make McCain out as completely bereft of qualifications is what makes the original point almost lost. Just another topic, that might be useful to discuss, lost to partisanship here in the LR.
I don't think I've seen a sigle post on this thread that mentioned he was completely bereft of qualifications. In fact, I don't think I've seen a single post in the LR that ever said he was even remotely bereft of qualifications. If you can find one, let me know. The OP is about Clark's supposed "nutty" comments, which no one has yet to show that they are nutty. He merely pointed out that McCain's military experience is not wartime comand experience and that people should be aware of that if that's what they see in him.
______________________________________________
-Barry Pollock (aka Baron Von Speedypants)
-Running Coach
RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
or you can search Runtraining## where ## is a number from 1-16.
last tri in 83
Jul 1, 08 11:24
Post #75 of 192 (418 views)
Re: Wesley Clark [MattinSF]
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5 yrs Harvard, judgement, decision making ability = I don't have a freakin clue about defense issues and it makes me look bad
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Conservative in exile.
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