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Wesley Clark

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Halvard

Jun 30, 08 18:19

Post #26 of 192 (714 views)

Re: Wesley Clark [ajfranke] [In reply to]	Can't Post

LOL, nice attack. Are you trying to swift boat me????

I have a lot of knowledge about what I am talking about, I have even worked in the Middle East.

McCain was wrong about Iraq. He thought Iraq was a treat to the US, he thought we would be we would be greened as liberator.

Please tell me, am I wrong???

Using personal attack is a Hannity tactic and I hope we can keep the discussion on a higher level.

Heia Norge :-)

ajfranke

Jun 30, 08 18:22

Post #27 of 192 (711 views)

Re: Wesley Clark [Halvard] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Great, let's keep the discussion on a higher level.

Please provide the context for McCain's three comments so we can know what he was saying. I know a high level dialog engager like you would need the basic information to move forward.
____
This forum is going to be a place of civil discourse, and those who wish to foment hate and discord are no longer welcome here. -- slowman 11/8/04

Art Franke

JSA

Jun 30, 08 20:18

Post #28 of 192 (682 views)

Re: Wesley Clark [MattinSF] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Wesley Clark was a general and John McCain was a Captain, the military obviously though that Clark had much better leadership skills than Mccain because they gave him lots more people to command.

You do understand that Wesley Clark was in the Army and John McCain was in the Navy, don't you? You do understand the difference in military rank between those two services, correct? You understand that a Captain in the Navy is a much, much higher command than a Captain in the Army, right? A Navy Captain is roughly the equivalent of an Army Colonel, which is one rank below General. (Granted, Clark was a 4-star Gen).

You understand that Clark spent 34 years in the Army and DoD, right? McCain spent 23 years in the Navy, 5 of which were as a POW.

You understand that "the military" does not promote officers, each branch does, right? So, "the military" did not evaluate Clark versus McCain.

Finally, you understand that Clark was forced into retirement shortly after he lost his mind at Pristina International Airport in Kosovo, right?

Any other comparrisons you want to make?

_______________________________________________

"My better is better than your better." - LT, via Nike

The people who keep me moving:

TRANSITION - Get Moving!

Casey

Jul 1, 08 1:56

Post #29 of 192 (655 views)

Re: Wesley Clark [JSA] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Any other comparrisons you want to make?

You forgot the most important. McCain is Republican and Clark is Democrat, which of course is all that really matters here.
__________________________________________________

You sir, are my new hero! - Trifan 11/13/2008

Casey, you are a wise man - blueraider_mike 11/13/2008

Casey, This is an astute observation. - Slowbern 11/17/2008

sphere

Jul 1, 08 5:52

Post #30 of 192 (630 views)

Re: Wesley Clark [slowguy] [In reply to]	Can't Post

There you go again, trying to interject reality into LR fantasy.

The full transcript:

Bob Schieffer: With us now from Little Rock, Arkansas Retired General Wesley Clark. He was for Hillary Clinton during the primaries. Once Hillary was out of it, he announced that he was supporting Barack Obama. And let's get right to it here, General. You heard what Senator Lieberman said. He said that Barack Obama is simply more ready to be President than, than Barack Obama. (sic)

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, I think Bar- I think Joe has it exactly backwards here. I think being President is, is about having good judgment. It's about the ability to communicate. As one of the great Presidential historians Richard Newsted said, "The greatest power of the Presidency is the power to persuade." And what Barack Obama brings is incredible communication skills, proven judgment. You look at his meteoric rise in politics, and you see a guy who deals with people well, who understands issues, who brings people together and who has good judgment in moving forward. And I think what we need to do, Bob, is we need to stop talking about the old politics of left and right, and we need to pull together and move the country forward. And I think that's what Barack Obama will do for America.

Bob Schieffer: Well you, you went so far as to say that you thought John McCain was, quote, and these are your words, "untested and untried," And I must say I, I had to read that twice, because you're talking about somebody who was a prisoner of war. He was a squadron commander of the largest squadron in the Navy. He's been on the Senate Armed Services Committee for lo these many years. How can you say that John McCain is un- untested and untried? General?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Because in the matters of national security policy making, it's a matter of understanding risk. It's a matter of gauging your opponents, and it's a matter of being held accountable. John McCain's never done any of that in his official positions. I certainly honor his service as a prisoner of war. He was a hero to me and to hundreds of thousands and millions of others in Armed Forces as a prisoner of war. He has been a voice on the Senate Armed Services Committee, and he has traveled all over the world. But he hasn't held executive responsibility. That large squadron in Air- in the Navy that he commanded, it wasn't a wartime squadron. He hasn't been there and ordered the bombs to fall. He hasn't seen what it's like when diplomats come in and say, 'I don't know whether we're going to be able to get this point through or not. Do you want to take the risk? What about your reputation? How do we handle it-'

Bob Schieffer: Well-

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: ' -it publicly.' He hasn't made those calls, Bob.

Bob Schieffer: Well, well, General, maybe-

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: So-

Bob Schieffer: Could I just interrupt you. If-

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Sure.

Bob Schieffer: I have to say, Barack Obama has not had any of those experiences either, nor has he ridden in a fighter plane and gotten shot down. I mean-

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, I don't think riding in a fighter plane and getting shot down is a qualification to be President.

Bob Schieffer: Really?!

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: But Barack is not, he is not running on the fact that he has made these national security pronouncements. He's running on his other strengths. He's running on the strengths of character, on the strengths of his communication skills, on the strengths of his judgment. And those are qualities that we seek in our national leadership.

The only reason his remarks drew any fire at all is because of the " I don't think riding in a fighter plane and getting shot down is a qualification to be President" line. And he is, of course, entirely correct.

And let's not forget the comment was a direct answer to a ridiculous question about Obama's credentials, including the fact that he's never been shot out of the sky. Clark gave the expected and perfectly unoffensive answer to the question, and elaborated on exactly what it is he's running on. Whether or not Clark, or anyone, believes that Obama possesses those qualities, or whether those qualities "qualify" someone for the presidency, is irrelevant; it is what he's campaigning on.

How this is an Obama attack on an American war hero, I'll never understand. I think Obama addressed this in roundabout fashion yesterday for this very reason; anything that is said by any of his supporters that conveys the sentiment that McCain's military service alone doesn't qualify him for the job is somehow attacking his service record. Obama understands how the game is played, and sent a message yesterday that he does not support those kinds of comments.

McCain himself appeared to have a difficult time feigning indignation over Clark's comments, but nevertheless took the opportunity to paint it as a smear from the Obama camp, just as Obama's camp did during the primaries over one of the several Clinton race card "attacks."

Kabukie theater, all of it.

"The nice part about being a pessimist is that you are constantly being either proven right or pleasantly surprised." - George F. Will

(This post was edited by sphere on Jul 1, 08 7:02)

fitzie

Jul 1, 08 5:55

Post #31 of 192 (626 views)

Re: Wesley Clark [JSA] [In reply to]	Can't Post

"A Navy Captain is roughly the equivalent of an Army Colonel, which is one rank below General. (Granted, Clark was a 4-star Gen)."

You might consider removing this part of your argument. A Navy Captain is an O-6 and a four star general in the Army is the same as an Admiral in the Navy with rank of O-10. In no way does an Army Colonel or Navy Captain compare to a four star General or Admiral.

"We thought that we had the answers, it was the questions we had wrong."
Bono

JSA

Jul 1, 08 6:10

Post #32 of 192 (614 views)

Re: Wesley Clark [fitzie] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Why remove it? I said a navy cpt was the same as an army col. Then I clarified that Clark was actually a four star general. My point being that the spread between an army captain and army general is far different than the spread between a navy captain and army general.

_______________________________________________

"My better is better than your better." - LT, via Nike

The people who keep me moving:

TRANSITION - Get Moving!

BarryP

Jul 1, 08 6:12

Post #33 of 192 (612 views)

Re: Wesley Clark [sphere] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Quote
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, I don't think riding in a fighter plane and getting shot down is a qualification to be President.

Bob Schieffer: Really?!

I love the response. "Really?!" This must have been why Rudy Guiliani couldn't beat him. He was hoping that being the mayor of a city that was attacked by terrorists was enough to qualify him to be president, but he had to run against a guy who was shot out of the sky. Poor Mitt Romney didn't stand a chance. His only qualification was being a successful businessman and the Governor of a state that ranks in the top of the country in many important statistics.

VVVV
______________________________________________

-Barry Pollock (aka Baron Von Speedypants)
-Running Coach

RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

or you can search Runtraining## where ## is a number from 1-16.

sphere

Jul 1, 08 6:50

Post #34 of 192 (588 views)

Re: Wesley Clark [BarryP] [In reply to]	Can't Post

What's equally curious is McCain's response to a question of Obama's patriotism, following Obama's unequivocal ("period, full stop.") characterization of McCain as someone whose patriotism is beyond reproach.

QUESTION: "Do you question at all his patriotism and secondly do you think your idea of patriotism and his are any different and is that something that you share?"

McCAIN: "I think that Senator Obama is a great American success story. I think his family is. I think he's someone who is admired and respected throughout this country and the world. I think our differences are how we intend to move forward in conducting the affairs of this country. We have very different views and very different positions, and I look forward to ventilating those.

"But I think all Americans are proud of Senator Obama and what he's been able to accomplish, he and his entire family have been able to accomplish, in this nation, and I think it's living proof of some of the greatness of America."

Essentially a non-answer.

"The nice part about being a pessimist is that you are constantly being either proven right or pleasantly surprised." - George F. Will

(This post was edited by sphere on Jul 1, 08 6:52)

trio_jeepy

Jul 1, 08 7:06

Post #35 of 192 (567 views)

Re: Wesley Clark [sphere] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I think you're going to see a lot of non-answers to questions like that. It's not as if McCain wasn't giving speeches impugning Obama's integrity over the last couple of days, so his feigned outrage is precious, to say the least.

McCain has to walk a fine line. He doesn't have a choice but to have his surrogates essentially portray Obama as the "other" which is, depending on how generous you are and the messenger, a subtle or not so subtle dig at his race. There is a Matt Taibbi article this week in Rolling Stone where he interviews some McCain supporters at his New Orleans rally the night Obama clinched. Given the small number of supporters there, I thought the interviews were rather telling, and frankly, horrifying. They were openly racist, and unless you just fell off the turnip truck, I think its obvious that while McCain isn't going to openly appeal to them for their vote, he isn't going to discourage them either. I'm trying to remember the last time I read an interview where the interviewee actually advocated sending a black American "back to Africa."

I think its unfortunate. I like McCain, but I think that we're seeing a very interesting transformation from someone with centrist tendencies who is now tacking right for the general election because, I think, he is realizing that the brass ring is so close and will never again come his way, and this is what he needs to do to get there. Interestingly, Obama is tacking more towards the center as the general election approaches, which is more typical. I guess we'll see what strategy works.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security" - Benjamin Franklin
"Don't you see the rest of the country looks upon New York like we're left-wing, communist, Jewish, homosexual pornographers? I think of us that way sometimes and I live here." - Alvy Singer, "Annie Hall"

sphere

Jul 1, 08 7:27

Post #36 of 192 (547 views)

Re: Wesley Clark [trio_jeepy] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I read Taibbi's articles mostly for the entertainment value, but certainly not as a source of objective journalism. Every campaign stop he writes about is full of knuckle-dragging, bible-thumping, ignorant hicks, if you were to believe his summation. I don't doubt they're to be found, but he constantly makes them the focus of his report, and paints Republicans with the same broad brush.

But you're right. McCain won't openly court them, and he won't turn them away. It's no different for the Democrats, though. I doubt Obama will be urging the Code Pinkos to stay home in November, no matter how vile or unrepresentative of his or the party's values they are. That's how the numbers game is played.

I admire McCain and the character he's shown over the course of his adult life, and I liked him as a politician prior to this campaing season. I take pride in having cast my vote for him over Bush in the 2000 South Carolina primaries, but his willingness to bend over for the Republican party (and it's presidential nominee, who didn't deserve to share the same stage with him) that treated him like rancid dog shit, raised a few serious questions in my mind. The transformation he's made over the last year has answered most of them.

"The nice part about being a pessimist is that you are constantly being either proven right or pleasantly surprised." - George F. Will

Slowman

Jul 1, 08 7:31

Post #37 of 192 (545 views)

Re: Wesley Clark [last tri in 83] [In reply to]	Can't Post

"the general's nutty remarks."

if longsuffering and heroism in the heat of battle = POTUS qualifications, then why not max cleland for president? or bob dole? of them all, i'd have to tap daniel inouye. he's got probably the most impressive combat narrative. why not him for president?

if you are like me, and you do not believe that suffering in combat, regardless of how honorably, substitutes for executive experience in matters of national defense, then what remarks were nutty? i mean, specifically what remarks?

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

trio_jeepy

Jul 1, 08 7:37

Post #38 of 192 (541 views)

Re: Wesley Clark [sphere] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I find Taibbi entertaining because there's nobody else out there who's quite as brutally insulting and creatively so. He's also generally equal opportunity, although obviously Republicans are more frequently his targets. That said, he's not likely to be somebody who drinks anybody's kool-aid.

I found it interesting that McCain is attacking Obama's integrity because of this election funding issue. That strikes me as pretty hypocritical and not terribly honest. At the end of the day, everybody knows that the rules don't cover 527 groups like the Swift Boat vets and its also clear that McCain has given the go-ahead to 527 groups to do their thing, so its seems less than honorable for him to sit around whacking at Obama for ducking the system which has this gigantic loophole while using the less savory parts. This is of course not discussing how McCain totally gamed the primary funding system as well. But that doesn't fit the narrative, apparently.

Incidentally, Olbermann listed all of McCain's flip-flops lately, most notably on the GI Bill, which evidently Bush gave him credit for, despite his tooth and nail fight against it. They include torture, campaign finance reform, etc. Rather interesting.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security" - Benjamin Franklin
"Don't you see the rest of the country looks upon New York like we're left-wing, communist, Jewish, homosexual pornographers? I think of us that way sometimes and I live here." - Alvy Singer, "Annie Hall"

squid

Jul 1, 08 7:43

Post #39 of 192 (538 views)

Re: Wesley Clark [last tri in 83] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I'm not sure what Clark said that wasn't true. He simply stated fact, that McCain's experience flying planes doesn't qualify him to be president. The Repubicans are the ones who bring it up, they repeatedly like to mention his experience as a POW while discussing his qualifications. If they're going to bring it up then they should quit whining when they get called on it. Kerry driving a swiftboat didn't qualify him to be pres, either. I've noticed that McCain never misses an opportunity to tell people/media that he would never use his experience of being tortured as a POW for 5 years to further his political career.....very clever.

last tri in 83

Jul 1, 08 7:55

Post #40 of 192 (526 views)

Re: Wesley Clark [Slowman] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I answered this is a previous post:

He had command and administrative experience, liason to the senate. I consider protection of the homeland to be #1 on my list so I would consider his military experience to be a positive thing.

It not "flying jets" that qualifies him to be a president, it's the entire military career/senate that gives him the experience in defense issues.

_____________________________________________
Conservative in exile.

Old and Haggard

Jul 1, 08 8:02

Post #41 of 192 (516 views)

Re: Wesley Clark [sphere] [In reply to]	Can't Post

McCain doesn't seem to be one who is quick on his feet for an answer to a question that hasn't been vetted by him and his staff. Thus, the sound bite answer that appears to be the closest match to the actual question. He didn't want to close the door on anyone questioning Obama's patriotism, which is quite the opposite of the stance that Obama himself took on McCain's patriotism. I think McCain understands that the rumor-mongering about Obama and the stupid lapel pin have value to his own campaign, and thus he doesn't go out of his way to tamp it down.
-----------------------------------
Ken Lehner

"reread klenher [sic] and pretty much skip the rest." - desert dude 5/25/2008

Old and Haggard

Jul 1, 08 8:04

Post #42 of 192 (513 views)

Re: Wesley Clark [last tri in 83] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

Read the transcript provided by http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...post=1861883#1861883

What about his comments did you find "nutty" (your word)?
-----------------------------------
Ken Lehner

"reread klenher [sic] and pretty much skip the rest." - desert dude 5/25/2008

trio_jeepy

Jul 1, 08 8:10

Post #43 of 192 (507 views)

Re: Wesley Clark [klehner] [In reply to]	Can't Post

There's no way that McCain is going to step up and stop surrogates from questioning Obama's patriotism, integrity, or "mainstreamness" [read: he's BLACK]. Its simply of too much value for him, and given that he's this close, there's no way he's going to refuse any weapon in his arsenal.

Of course, it's shrewd/sleazy and standard in the Republican playbook - its a question typically without any definitive affirmative answer. What can you say when somebody questions your patriotism? There's no real way to prove it, although if somebody questions mine to my face, he better be prepared to get punched in the face, repeatedly until unconscious. Unfortunately, that's inappropriate for a Presidential campaign, so you end up with this idiotic question that ends up obsessing the low-information knuckle-dragging vote.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security" - Benjamin Franklin
"Don't you see the rest of the country looks upon New York like we're left-wing, communist, Jewish, homosexual pornographers? I think of us that way sometimes and I live here." - Alvy Singer, "Annie Hall"

Slowman

Jul 1, 08 8:14

Post #44 of 192 (505 views)

Re: Wesley Clark [last tri in 83] [In reply to]	Can't Post

"I answered this is a previous post:"

really? i didn't see it. in what post did you delineate those comments that are "nutty?" if "an entire military career/senate" invests you with the chops to be POTUS, then fine, i'll accept that. in which case murtha and mccain are equals in their readiness to be president. but that's not what clark was talking about.

clark's thesis is that we can't just accept this narrative: that mccain's status as POW is conflated with executive experience. clark is saying this conflation is void of substance, that while mccain's senate experience is valid, and his military service was laudable and heroic, time served as a POW is not equal to time served in the command structure. it allows mccain a particular insight into legislation on torture. but if he'd served those six years as, say, CINCPAC, that's executive experience. time served as a POW does not equal executive experience.

so, what are those nutty comments clark made again?

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

last tri in 83

Jul 1, 08 8:20

Post #45 of 192 (502 views)

Re: Wesley Clark [klehner] [In reply to]	Can't Post

First, he was big for Mrs. Clinton and now he is an BHO apologist???? So that moves him into the part hack or I want to be VP category.

Senator McCain is "untried and untested." Even you would have to admit that is crazy.

The "riding in a fighter plane and getting shot down" comment sounds like some inner jealousy thing to me. It's just plain strange.

_____________________________________________
Conservative in exile.

BarryP

Jul 1, 08 8:20

Post #46 of 192 (502 views)

Re: Wesley Clark [last tri in 83] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Quote

I consider protection of the homeland to be #1 on my list so I would consider his military experience to be a positive thing.

Did you vote for Gore over Bush?

I think #1 on your list is being a Republican. #2 on your list is to revert back to #1.
______________________________________________

-Barry Pollock (aka Baron Von Speedypants)
-Running Coach

RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

or you can search Runtraining## where ## is a number from 1-16.

BarryP

Jul 1, 08 8:27

Post #47 of 192 (494 views)

Re: Wesley Clark [last tri in 83] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Quote

Senator McCain is "untried and untested." Even you would have to admit that is crazy.

Try again. You need to place that in context. He clarified that position right here:

"Because in the matters of national security policy making, it's a matter of understanding risk. It's a matter of gauging your opponents, and it's a matter of being held accountable. John McCain's never done any of that in his official positions. I certainly honor his service as a prisoner of war. He was a hero to me and to hundreds of thousands and millions of others in Armed Forces as a prisoner of war. He has been a voice on the Senate Armed Services Committee, and he has traveled all over the world. But he hasn't held executive responsibility. That large squadron in Air- in the Navy that he commanded, it wasn't a wartime squadron. He hasn't been there and ordered the bombs to fall. He hasn't seen what it's like when diplomats come in and say, 'I don't know whether we're going to be able to get this point through or not. Do you want to take the risk? What about your reputation? How do we handle it......"

Quote

The "riding in a fighter plane and getting shot down" comment sounds like some inner jealousy thing to me. It's just plain strange.

Again....context. That comment was in direct response to the rediculous notion that somehow getting shotdown *does* qualify you to be president. Here it is:

"Bob Schieffer: I have to say, Barack Obama has not had any of those experiences either, nor has he ridden in a fighter plane and gotten shot down. I mean-

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Well, I don't think riding in a fighter plane and getting shot down is a qualification to be President. "

So what exactly did he say that was nutty?
______________________________________________

-Barry Pollock (aka Baron Von Speedypants)
-Running Coach

RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

or you can search Runtraining## where ## is a number from 1-16.

last tri in 83

Jul 1, 08 8:29

Post #48 of 192 (494 views)

Re: Wesley Clark [Slowman] [In reply to]	Can't Post

It is not the POW part. That looks good on a campaign commercial which is what the Clark and the dems object to. It is McC's command/administrative experience that I find appealing in the area of defense. Not the sole reason to vote for someone but an important one for me.

_____________________________________________
Conservative in exile.

Casey

Jul 1, 08 8:33

Post #49 of 192 (491 views)

Re: Wesley Clark [last tri in 83] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I consider protection of the homeland to be #1 on my list so I would consider his military experience to be a positive thing.

Is that for this election or for all elections?

If you are consistent with military experience being important, I'd be interested in who you voted for in 2000 and 2004.
__________________________________________________

You sir, are my new hero! - Trifan 11/13/2008

Casey, you are a wise man - blueraider_mike 11/13/2008

Casey, This is an astute observation. - Slowbern 11/17/2008

Slowman

Jul 1, 08 8:44

Post #50 of 192 (482 views)

Re: Wesley Clark [last tri in 83] [In reply to]	Can't Post

"It is McC's command/administrative experience that I find appealing in the area of defense."

that "command experience in defense," fine, but murtha, kerry, inouye, and 30 or 40 other legislators have equal or greater experience. no matter. you can select the candidate of your choice.

but, again, what are those nutty comments clark made?

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

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