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Socialism doesn't work...
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Flanagan
Oct 9, 08 12:43
Post #1 of 21 (361 views)
Socialism doesn't work...
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So does big government work? California has more government oversight than other states, it is a financial disaster. Government regulation is killing the auto-industry. Look at Michigan. Auto-makers have their hands tied, and they can't even give away the over-regulated cars they are manufacturing. Our Federal Government is bigger than it has ever been. The economy across the country is stagnant and headed for a horrible Q4 and 2009. Meanwhile the economy in Washington DC is thriving. What gives?
Also, there seems to be some consensus there is not enough liquidity in the markets. There is not enough money, not enough deposits, to prop up the existing outstanding loans and risk. Except our government has trillions of dollars on its balance sheet. How did it get that money? It is OUR MONEY!!! If taxes were reduced to begin with, wouldn't that money already be in the market? If each of us had $5K or $10K more at the end of the year, wouldn't we spend some of it? Isn't this liquidity injection a perfect example of why the money should stay in our hands?
Trickle-Down Economics is Bullshit! However, I say that because the term is not used correctly. What the government is doing now is trickle-down if I ever saw a trickle.
Earn Money at Work
Send Money to Govt
Money sits on Govt "Balance Sheet" (how we have a balance sheet while running a deficit is beyond me...)
Govt Sends Money Back into market
Added liquidity frees up the lending market
We can finally get loans again.
Wouldn't we be better off not even needing a loan if we could just spend the money directly? I don't get it.
Typical "Trickle-Down" is a misnomer. Tax-cuts down trickle down. They give a direct injection of cash to every worker. If I employ you, and I pay your salary, that is a direct injection of cash to you, it is not a trickle down. If I employ you, and your labor costs go up (ie raising minimum wage), and my taxes go up, there is a very high probability I am going to re-evaluate if I should employ you or not. When this worker gets fired, his salary goes to zero. Which would you prefer? The direct cash for the value of the goods you produce or the services you offer, or for you to lose your job and to get some of the trickle of money from the government. Socialism is the real trickle-down. Socialism doesn't work. Capitalism works. If you don't like it, then do something about it.
Rant over... ;-)
2009 Goals: Cat 1 for Road Cycling, Pro Triathlon
Here's My Blog...
corinwright
Oct 9, 08 13:10
Post #2 of 21 (342 views)
Re: Socialism doesn't work... [Flanagan]
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Pure capitalism, certainly doesn't work. Nor does socialism. Do you think patents are a good thing or a bad thing? They are an artificial hindrance to the free market.
What people try to do is to place controls on the free market that provide more benefit than cost. Obviously, objectivity and precision in this determination is near impossible, leading to differences in opinion. Compound that with our democracy, and people voting in their own best interests (I am not saying that this is bad or good), and our system resembles the collective will of the people, and their "vision/version" of capitalism.
Personally, I think that a monarchy is the best system, you just need to hope for a good king...
Oh- and what's this nonsense about the auto industry, the Japanese automakers, and Koreans (and Germans), are making and selling cars in this country, under the same regulations as the US automakers, and turning a profit. Washington is not to blame here, in this case, it can solely be shouldered by the bean counters that ran the big 3 into the ground.
blueraider_mike
Oct 9, 08 13:33
Post #3 of 21 (312 views)
Re: Socialism doesn't work... [Flanagan]
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But not our socialism, it hasn't been tried yet...
wickedcheezit
Oct 9, 08 13:43
Post #4 of 21 (295 views)
Re: Socialism doesn't work... [Flanagan]
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Great original post. Unfortunately, the responses are two of the scariest things I have ever seen posted on Slowtwitch.
Capitalism does work. We need some Reagan conservatism right about now.
O, and unions are the difference!
jkca1
Oct 9, 08 14:04
Post #5 of 21 (283 views)
Re: Socialism doesn't work... [wickedcheezit]
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When's the last decade we had pure capitalism in this country? I'd argue that pure capitalism died here before the 1920's. I'm kind of on the Herbert Spencer side of the fence although I can see areas such as food, medicine and transportation added to the list below for our safety...
"Herbert Spencer believed that the government should have only two purposes. One was to defend the nation against foreign invasion. The other was to protect citizens and their property from criminals. Any other government action was "over-legislation."
"No one is remembered for the Novel they almost wrote."
Johnny99
Oct 9, 08 14:16
Post #6 of 21 (274 views)
Re: Socialism doesn't work... [Flanagan]
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What pisses me off the most about the bail-out is that it socializes only the loses. Our government gets to cherry pick and picks the rotten cherries.
blueraider_mike
Oct 9, 08 14:18
Post #7 of 21 (270 views)
Re: Socialism doesn't work... [jkca1]
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Dave Ramsey says:
"Quit blaming Congress or looking to them to fix you. YOU have to fix you! When you wait on the government to fix your life and wait for money to be taken from others and given to you, that's a spirit of envy.
The only system that works is capitalism functioning under moral restraint
. Go be somebody!"
roady
Oct 9, 08 14:19
Post #8 of 21 (269 views)
Re: Socialism doesn't work... [jkca1]
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In Reply To
When's the last decade we had pure capitalism in this country? I'd argue that pure capitalism died here before the 1920's.
not even close. who subsidized the infrastructure upon which Carnegie made his fortune? 'pure capitalism' and 'truly free markets' simply don't exist in civilized societies, period. The question is 'how much regulation/contribution should the state have/make, and 'on who's behalf'.
(This post was
edited
by roady on Oct 9, 08 14:20)
BarryP
Oct 9, 08 16:31
Post #9 of 21 (230 views)
Re: Socialism doesn't work... [Flanagan]
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Quote
If taxes were reduced to begin with, wouldn't that money already be in the market?
Have you ever really thought about what happens to a dollar when it goes to the governement?
I had to explain this to a conservative coworker once when he talked about money being *wasted* on education. I explained that salaries are being paid, computers are being bought, contrustion is being done, etc. I explained that it wasn't much different than when people are taxed and the money goes into the government, then to Aberdean proving ground, then to our employer (a DOD contractor), then to his pocket, then to his consumer purchases,
In otherwords, they don't take your money and stick it under a mattress. If you want to talk about free market competition, quality of survices, and effeciency then you have a valid point....but its a different point.
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corinwright
Oct 9, 08 16:38
Post #10 of 21 (220 views)
Re: Socialism doesn't work... [wickedcheezit]
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you need to do some reading up on pure capitalism, and then try to identify anytime in history, in any society, we have even approached that model. Not even close under Reagan.
and, yes, some of the American factories that produce "Japanese" cars have unionized workforces.
be more specific, what was scary about my post?
corinwright
Oct 9, 08 16:44
Post #11 of 21 (214 views)
Re: Socialism doesn't work... [BarryP]
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the general argument that is used in response to your statement, is that the market would choose to spend that $ more wisely, or not spend it, but invest it more wisely in an instrument that would yield better return, create more jobs, wealth, etc...
Of course, every $ collected by the gov't (and then some) is quickly turned right back over to the market in defense spending (Boeing, Lockheed, etc), salaries, works projects, and on and on.
corinwright
Oct 9, 08 16:53
Post #12 of 21 (204 views)
Re: Socialism doesn't work... [blueraider_mike]
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and the failure of that statement is "moral".
A business has no, zero, zilch, responsibility to act morally or ethically. Its sole function is to maximize, not increase, but maximize shareholder wealth. It has a legal obligation/responsibility to operate under that laws of the nations/states/etc. that it operates. It is society's responsibility to codify morals and ethics into laws and regulations. It is impossible for a multinational company to act morally or ethically, as the morals and ethics vary from the US to Saudi Arabia to China etc. The only compass that it can use is the "legal system" of laws and regulations.
I am as free market as anyone, but the main problem with democracy is that people vote in their own best interests. Since 95% of the people make less money than the top 5% of the people, you know right there how the tax system will be skewed. So the challenge becomes, maximizing net income within the system of regulations that the majority of people think is fair...
slowguy
Oct 9, 08 16:58
Post #13 of 21 (197 views)
Re: Socialism doesn't work... [corinwright]
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"It is impossible for a multinational company to act morally or ethically"
It's not impossible. It's just impossible for a business to act in a way that everyone will see as ethical or moral.
"Its sole function is to maximize, not increase, but maximize shareholder wealth."
Depends on the business doesn't it? The function of any given business is set by the owner/proprieter of that business. If the owner feels that part of his business' function is to act in accordance with his moral code, then that is, by defnition, a function of that business.
The only way all businesses are supposed to function as you say is if we lived in a purely capitalistic society. We don't. Noone does. The reason noone does is because people can't stomach businesses with absolutely no moral code.
Slowguy
(insert pithy phrase here...)
MattinSF
Oct 9, 08 17:01
Post #14 of 21 (191 views)
Re: Socialism doesn't work... [Flanagan]
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California's financial problems have absolutely nothing to do with oversight or regulation.
Our system of governance sucks and our system of taxation and disbursement sucks. Other than that our economy and our workforce are very productive, moreso than workers in any other state (if you cut out the red counties of course).
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HOPE is a plan that worked. CHANGE is a plan that worked. BELIEVE is a plan that worked.
Tri N OC
Oct 9, 08 17:06
Post #15 of 21 (187 views)
Re: Socialism doesn't work... [jkca1]
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I'm kind of on the Herbert Spencer side of the fence although I can see areas such as food, medicine and transportation added to the list below for our safety...
It is indeed a slippery slope. What about the abuses of the Robber Barons? Did the Molly McGuires rise up in a vacum?
corinwright
Oct 9, 08 17:09
Post #16 of 21 (184 views)
Re: Socialism doesn't work... [slowguy]
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-agree, that's why I qualified the statement
-on the second point I should have been specific, in that I was referring to publicly traded companies, but yes you are correct, if you own the company, you can do what you please...
- on the last point, I also agree, but I would put those expenses and decisions under marketing and public relations... where it gets slippery is that peoples morals and ethics are on a slider scale from 0 - 1. Its tough for a company to figure out where to set the switch.
J&J (Tylenol) got it right with the cyanide scare, but did they do that because it was the moral thing to do, or because it was the financially savvy thing to do?
Merck got it wrong, but was it because of a marketing/perception issue, or a moral issue? Vioxx is a great drug that "helps" millions of people...it should have been kept on the market...
Flanagan
Oct 9, 08 17:16
Post #17 of 21 (178 views)
Re: Socialism doesn't work... [BarryP]
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In Reply To
Quote
If taxes were reduced to begin with, wouldn't that money already be in the market?
Have you ever really thought about what happens to a dollar when it goes to the governement?
I had to explain this to a conservative coworker once when he talked about money being *wasted* on education. I explained that salaries are being paid, computers are being bought, contrustion is being done, etc. I explained that it wasn't much different than when people are taxed and the money goes into the government, then to Aberdean proving ground, then to our employer (a DOD contractor), then to his pocket, then to his consumer purchases,
In otherwords, they don't take your money and stick it under a mattress. If you want to talk about free market competition, quality of survices, and effeciency then you have a valid point....but its a different point.
Much more the latter. I realize money is spent on education, defense, entitlements, healthcare, infrastructure, etc. I just firmly believe the government is HIGHLY inefficient and for the most part quite ineffective. I've said it multiple times on here, but it is plain as day driving around Washington DC that a disproportionate amount of new construction is taking place now or has taken place recently. This is due to money coming to the Fed and staying close to DC. The citizens are gettign a poor return.
Lets take the FDIC as an example. You should see what the FDIC's building looks like here in Arlington. Its basically trophy office space. Now the the FDIC is too leveraged in order back the number of banks which may fail. These organizations don't need such expensive office space. All over the region there are government programs which are moving into brand new class-A or trophy office space. I have a problem with that as a taxpayer.
Some people move to DC and they believe this is what America is all about. I moved here, and I believe this is what is wrong with America. Different strokes for different folks. America is about the 50 states. Let the states do their thing; let the Federal Government protect our national security interests. I truly feel it is overreaching in doing anything else.
2009 Goals: Cat 1 for Road Cycling, Pro Triathlon
Here's My Blog...
corinwright
Oct 9, 08 17:38
Post #18 of 21 (162 views)
Re: Socialism doesn't work... [Flanagan]
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take a look at
this study
the "blue states" have a lower ratio of $$$received/$$$spent than do the "red states". DC does get much more than it spends, but it seems that the "red state" people complain about their taxes more than the "blue state" people, however if it was "equalized" the "red state" folks would bear more of the burden...
Caveat - in no way are you to infer that I support our current level of taxation. Hypocrisy just pisses me off.
wickedcheezit
Oct 9, 08 19:11
Post #19 of 21 (137 views)
Re: Socialism doesn't work... [jkca1]
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I don't believe I said pure capitalism. I believe there are multiple forms of capitalism, but I did not get specific.
Socialism and Monarchy, scary!!
I guess both systems are okay if you are of the elite. Most americans obviously believe they would be -- you can see proof of this on any reality television show, ie My Super Sweet Sixteen or American Idol.
I find it frightening that americans are so willing to give up freedoms that were difficult to obtain.
I would argue the government does not need to be in our homes and banks or really much in our food (milk crisis in Communist china), medicine, and transportation. I don't believe they need to be totally hands off but less is better than more where government is concerned.
"A culture does not survive and prosper merely by being taken for granted. Active defense is always required." j. kirk
Finally, I cite Reagan b/c I believe we are begining to see the rise of Communism again and I find that to be as bad or worse than our economic crisis
"Government is not the solution to our problem, government is the problem" RR
ston_ar
Oct 9, 08 20:00
Post #20 of 21 (115 views)
Re: Socialism doesn't work... [wickedcheezit]
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I love the cold-war thinking. You do know that we're coming up on 20 years since that was over right? True communism was never achieved, only autocracies with a communist propaganda machine.
"
I would argue the government does not need to be in our homes and banks or really much in our food (milk crisis in Communist china), medicine, and transportation. I don't believe they need to be totally hands off but less is better than more where government is concerned."
Seems like you're arguing for a night-watchman type of state, only looking out for rights abuses. I would agree with you, if you have perfect information, which no one has. Are you willing to be a human guinea pig when a new drug comes out thats supposed to help you? As for China, again they are an autocracy claiming to be for the people. Also in an actual communist state there is no government whatsoever, the people make what they need and trade for what they don't make. So, your attempted correlation between communism and big government is itself a contradiction.
By the way, what's so scary about socialism and monarchy? They're just historically abused methods of governance, that doesn't mean that they are completely unworkable.
kittycat
Oct 10, 08 6:00
Post #21 of 21 (74 views)
Re: Socialism doesn't work... [Flanagan]
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RIGHT ON BROTHER!!!!!
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