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Slowtwitch Forums: Lavender Room:
Shooting at Ft. Hood

 

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chainpin

Nov 6, 09 13:29

Post #151 of 184 (413 views)
Re: Shooting at Ft. Hood [FJB] [In reply to] Can't Post

In Reply To:
"We don't know all the answers yet. And I would caution against jumping to conclusions until we have all the facts,"

That's an outrage.

Weak I know, I just thought it was kind of funny that people yesterday were predicting this exact verbiage from the Prez.

But indeed, facts are starting to be revealed, oh, and what dandies they are.

For example, this nugget from the ever astute AP:



WASHINGTON (AP) - A classmate of the Fort Hood shooting suspect says Maj. Nidal Hasan was an outspoken opponent of the U.S. war on terror and called it a "war against Islam."

Dr. Val Finnell was a classmate of Hasan's at the Uniformed Services University of the Health Sciences in Bethesda, Md. Both attended a master's in public health program in 2007 and 2008.

Finnell says he got to know Hasan in an environmental health class. At the end of the class, students gave presentations. Finnell says other classmates wrote on subjects such as dry cleaning chemicals and mold in homes, but Hasan's topic was whether the war against terror was "a war against Islam." Finnell described Hasan as a "vociferous opponent" of the terror war.

Finnell says Hasan told classmates he was "a Muslim first and an American second."




Funny, it looks like there is a pattern here.

A presentation on the Koran at a scientific conference (see post above), then another presentation on the "war against Islam', in an environmental class.

Hmmm.

I guess I will simply Abide by what Obama said and go search for some more facts, so that hopefully I can arrive at the truth.

"I really wish you would post more often. You always have some good stuff to say. I copied it below just in case someone missed it." BarryP to Chainpin on 10/21/06



jriosa

Nov 6, 09 13:50

Post #152 of 184 (401 views)
Re: Shooting at Ft. Hood [chainpin] [In reply to] Can't Post

Serious question though - since all of this verbiage seems to have been made in relatively open forums - why the f$%^& didn't the military have this guy on a super tight leash, let alone kick his sorry ass out? Hell, they boot people for being gay because they think that might somehow put troops or missions at risk, and they let this looney hang around, let alone promote him to Major?

I really don't know the ins and outs of what the military can or can't do in this regard, but it seems to me that if your sexual orientation is an issue, someone saying they are Muslim first and American second has some loyalty issues that I certainly wouldn't want under my command.
Jim


FJB

Nov 6, 09 13:59

Post #153 of 184 (387 views)
Re: Shooting at Ft. Hood [jriosa] [In reply to] Can't Post

Serious question though - since all of this verbiage seems to have been made in relatively open forums - why the f$%^& didn't the military have this guy on a super tight leash, let alone kick his sorry ass out?

That's the problem I have. It was noted in an earlier post that this guy was on some sort of watch because of some of his internet postings so you have to wonder what and when do they do something about it. They go to so much trouble to identify potential problems and then when they have some red flags raised, just sit on the information.

There has to be a good reason they held off from acting.


Rodred

Nov 6, 09 14:07

Post #154 of 184 (377 views)
Re: Shooting at Ft. Hood [FJB] [In reply to] Can't Post

In Reply To:
Serious question though - since all of this verbiage seems to have been made in relatively open forums - why the f$%^& didn't the military have this guy on a super tight leash, let alone kick his sorry ass out?

That's the problem I have. It was noted in an earlier post that this guy was on some sort of watch because of some of his internet postings so you have to wonder what and when do they do something about it. They go to so much trouble to identify potential problems and then when they have some red flags raised, just sit on the information.

There has to be a good reason they held off from acting.
Sadly I fear it political correctness and a fear of "what if we are wrong" and knowing that the investigators would be raked over the coals if they were wrong. Its one of the reasons I think his "Boo hoo poor me, I was being harrassed" is a crock. The system favors him in every way and yet he still screams victim


Rodred

Nov 6, 09 14:09

Post #155 of 184 (376 views)
Re: Shooting at Ft. Hood [chainpin] [In reply to] Can't Post

In Reply To:
NPR, of all entities, is keeping it real with the Muslim terrorist story.

This from a segment today about a presentation Jihadi Hasan gave on the Koran:

http://www.npr.org/...hp?storyId=120162816

He gave a Grand Rounds presentation. . . You take turns giving a lecture on, you know, the correct treatment of schizophrenia, the right drugs to prescribe for personality disorder, you know, that sort of thing. But instead of giving an academic paper, he gave a lecture on the Koran, and they said it didn’t seem to be just an informational lecture, but it seemed to be his own beliefs. That’s what a lot of people thought.

He talked about how if you’re a nonbeliever the Koran says you should have your head cut off, you should have oil poured down your throat, you should be set on fire. And I said well couldn’t this just be his educating you? And the psychiatrist said yes, but one of the Muslims in the audience, another psychiatrist, raised his hand and was quite disturbed and he said you know, a lot of us don’t believe these things you’re saying, and that there was no place where Hasan couched it as this is what the Koran teaches but you know I don’t believe it. And people actually talked in the hallway afterwards about ‘is he one of these people that’s going to freak out and shoot people someday?’


Good on NPR for saying the hell with political correctness, and not worrying about "offending" Muslims by helping to reveal the truth about this filthy pig.
I really thought I had seen my share of flying pigs in the last fews days but this one seems to be sporting ice skates and he said he was headed for a littleskating with Satan. Sheeesh NPR


gonehome

Nov 6, 09 14:11

Post #156 of 184 (374 views)
Re: Shooting at Ft. Hood [jriosa] [In reply to] Can't Post

A long time ago my daddy told me that in America, we thought it was better to let 10 guilty men go free than to put one innocent man to death. He was dismayed that the 10 - 1 ratio seemed to be increasing. Now, it seems, we have come to a point where several innocent men must die in order to protect one man's right to be a religious fanatic.

"Today, the Supreme Court struck down police departments' abillity to use firearms on the grounds it gave them an unfair advantage over those who had merely been suspected of a crime."


(This post was edited by Curvy Boy on Nov 6, 09 14:35)


Rodred

Nov 6, 09 14:12

Post #157 of 184 (372 views)
Re: Shooting at Ft. Hood [Rodred] [In reply to] Can't Post

Some diturbing stuff in that article

I want to add something else about Hasan at Walter Reed. The psychiatrist I talked to today said that he was the kind of guy who the staff actually stood around in the hallway, saying: Do you think he's a terrorist, or is he just weird? And now, apparently, Walter Reed is in a lockdown mode where they've been instructed - all the staff has been instructed: Do not talk to anybody about this investigation, except military people. Do not talk to the FBI, because they're afraid, potentially, what if people decide investigating this that people missed potential warning signs about the guy? You know, this is speculation still, but�


YaHey

Nov 6, 09 14:26

Post #158 of 184 (352 views)
Re: Shooting at Ft. Hood [chainpin] [In reply to] Can't Post

This whole infatuation you have with Obama is getting boring. All the weird stuff with this guy happened during the Bush/Cheney era.

-------------------------------------


chainpin

Nov 6, 09 14:32

Post #159 of 184 (346 views)
Re: Shooting at Ft. Hood [YaHey] [In reply to] Can't Post

In Reply To:
This whole infatuation you have with Obama is getting boring. All the weird stuff with this guy happened during the Bush/Cheney era.

Fair enough Yahey, I will simply focus on the Jihadi Nasan.

"I really wish you would post more often. You always have some good stuff to say. I copied it below just in case someone missed it." BarryP to Chainpin on 10/21/06



Rodred

Nov 6, 09 15:04

Post #160 of 184 (328 views)
Re: Shooting at Ft. Hood [YaHey] [In reply to] Can't Post

In Reply To:
This whole infatuation you have with Obama is getting boring. All the weird stuff with this guy happened during the Bush/Cheney era.

Everythiing except killing his comrades right?

Not that I think whos in the WH has anything to do with what this tool did. It probably delayed him a little in hopes that Big O would pull out but other than that a non issue in this case


FJB

Nov 6, 09 15:26

Post #161 of 184 (314 views)
Re: Shooting at Ft. Hood [Rodred] [In reply to] Can't Post

Sadly I fear it political correctness and a fear of "what if we are wrong" and knowing that the investigators would be raked over the coals if they were wrong.

I think you are probably right. It must be frustrating for those who uncover some of his disturbing comments and then have their hands tied. I realize it is a balancing act between suspicion and over zealousness but at some point, they have to do act.

We haven't heard the end of this.


Rodred

Nov 6, 09 16:35

Post #162 of 184 (294 views)
Re: Shooting at Ft. Hood [FJB] [In reply to] Can't Post

Its just gets worse the more I hear about this turd.

And now they are releasing some of the soldiers names and backround stories. Humbling


I do wish the media would drop some of their angles though on the story. "How did he get the guns on post?" Silly question. I do hope however they stick to the ones that matter and hopefully get this PC BS out in the open so we can protect ourselves better. its the symptom of a bigger issue that is used against us on many fronts daily as the "bad guys" twist our words and laws and individual standards to their favor.


(This post was edited by Rodred on Nov 6, 09 16:39)


TwinDad

Nov 6, 09 17:24

Post #163 of 184 (278 views)
Re: Shooting at Ft. Hood [Rodred] [In reply to] Can't Post

In Reply To:
"How did he get the guns on post?" Silly question.

Actually, that raises something I'm curious about... on a military post in the US such as Ft. Hood, how much live ammo is being carried around, typically?

I imagine it differs based on war/peacetime footing, but is it usually just MP's and folks headed to the firing range who have live ammo, or does any random Corporal you run across have his M16 locked and loaded all the time?

For that matter, on a random day, how many folks would typically even be armed, loaded or not? Do the motor pool guys do their oil changes with .45s on their belts?

--------------------
Yes, I too now have a Blog. Don't laugh.


Super Fly TNT

Nov 6, 09 17:30

Post #164 of 184 (272 views)
Re: Shooting at Ft. Hood [TwinDad] [In reply to] Can't Post

No one carries weapons or ammo, unless you're an MP or humping to the range. It's actually pretty easy to get a weapon and ammo through the gates, just so long as you don't get a "random" inspection. Luckily in my case, I only had a muzzleloader. I guess they didn't take me too seriously.


Tri N OC

Nov 6, 09 17:56

Post #165 of 184 (256 views)
Re: Shooting at Ft. Hood [TwinDad] [In reply to] Can't Post

on a military post in the US such as Ft. Hood, how much live ammo is being carried around, typically?

The Commanding General commented on this at the news conference. Other than during a training exericse, the only people with weapons are the MP's and the Dept of the Army (civilian) police.

The suspected shooter had a private weapon that he purchased off base and brought onto the base. Specifically, an FN 5.7. Still unknown is the type of ammunition he used with it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FN_Five-seven


TwinDad

Nov 6, 09 18:31

Post #166 of 184 (241 views)
Re: Shooting at Ft. Hood [Tri N OC] [In reply to] Can't Post

I can certainly see the general safety benefits of having weapons restricted on a base in CONUS...

but knowing that only the MPs were armed, it makes a lot more sense how this guy managed to shoot 45-ish people before someone brought him down.

Had the troops been packing, I bet this whole thing would have been over much quicker... but OTOH, you'd have a lot more accidental shootings on a regular basis. Tradeoffs can be a bitch.

--------------------
Yes, I too now have a Blog. Don't laugh.


rick_pcfl

Nov 6, 09 19:16

Post #167 of 184 (226 views)
Re: Shooting at Ft. Hood [Tri N OC] [In reply to] Can't Post

I've been around firearms all my life. Part of my job involves working to make sure special ops guys are able to order parts for their weapons. In all that time, I've never heard of the 5.7

For someone wanting to do damage to a lot of people, I can see how it would be much more effective than a standard 9mm or .45. I bet the range is 2 to 3 times that of a standard round, though accuracy would be a factor.


big kahuna

Nov 6, 09 20:04

Post #168 of 184 (213 views)
Re: Shooting at Ft. Hood [Rodred] [In reply to] Can't Post

Some diturbing stuff in that article

I want to add something else about Hasan at Walter Reed. The psychiatrist I talked to today said that he was the kind of guy who the staff actually stood around in the hallway, saying: Do you think he's a terrorist, or is he just weird? And now, apparently, Walter Reed is in a lockdown mode where they've been instructed - all the staff has been instructed: Do not talk to anybody about this investigation, except military people. Do not talk to the FBI, because they're afraid, potentially, what if people decide investigating this that people missed potential warning signs about the guy? You know, this is speculation still, but�

Some retired Army three star had it right when he observed that military physicians are a very privileged class in the armed forces. I know this for a fact, as I was around more than enough of them when I was a Corpsman and then as a PA and a healthcare administator. They get away with murder, mainly because the services know those folks are worth their weight in gold. Many times, the services have also invested huge amounts of money in their training or have paid off their loans in order to get them to accept a commission and serve.

In the case of this guy, who'd been in medical training for much of his career, from USUHS all the way to when he finished his fellowship just this year, there was no way the Army was just going to let this guy, no matter how weird he may have seemed, up and leave even if he really did have the money to pay back all the costs involved in his education and training. I worked with one Navy surgeon who we actually called "Killer Miller." The guy was not only dangerous in the OR but he also had a tendency to shove or otherwise physically intimidate the folks working with him in the OR theater. As a LCDR (O4), he once slapped an OR nurse (a Navy LT/O3) who was too slow to get him his tray set. He walked away with a non-punitive letter of reprimand and was promoted to O5 the following year.

Whatever poor evaluation or FITREP (or whatever it is the Army calls it) he got, he was still promoted to MAJ and he most likely would've made at least O5 over his career, if not full colonel and eventual command of a medical treatment facility (MTF). He's a staff corps officer and not of the line, and it looks like he had about zero effective officer leadership training and education. Him going off the reservation like he did is a massive failure all up and down this fellow's chain of command for the sake of expediency and out of a sense that his skills were just too valuable to lose. Therefore, his glaringly obvious (in hindsight) behaviors probably never received the serious attention they should have.

Nidal Hasan the morning of the shooting. At a convenience store:




This is an interesting bit from NPR:

Here’s the NPR segment. Key bit:

He gave a Grand Rounds presentation. . . You take turns giving a lecture on, you know, the correct treatment of schizophrenia, the right drugs to prescribe for personality disorder, you know, that sort of thing. But instead of giving an academic paper, he gave a lecture on the Koran, and they said it didn’t seem to be just an informational lecture, but it seemed to be his own beliefs. That’s what a lot of people thought.
He talked about how if you’re a nonbeliever the Koran says you should have your head cut off, you should have oil poured down your throat, you should be set on fire. And I said well couldn’t this just be his educating you? And the psychiatrist said yes, but one of the Muslims in the audience, another psychiatrist, raised his hand and was quite disturbed and he said you know, a lot of us don’t believe these things you’re saying, and that there was no place where Hasan couched it as this is what the Koran teaches but you know I don’t believe it. And people actually talked in the hallway afterwards about ‘is he one of these people that’s going to freak out and shoot people someday?’

*The current piece at NPR is slightly changed and in a different order now, though there's nothing nefarious about it. It's just that it's made slightly different for West Coast audiences.


From Instapundit:

Kind of reminds me of that old Saturday Night Live skit on “The Shooting of Buckwheat.” You know: “What was he like?” “Nice guy, quiet, kept to himself.” “Are you surprised he shot Buckwheat?” “Oh, no — it’s all he ever talked about.”


Truly a ticking timebomb that should have been defused quite a while ago.


T.



(This post was edited by big kahuna on Nov 6, 09 20:37)


Rodred

Nov 7, 09 3:34

Post #169 of 184 (185 views)
Re: Shooting at Ft. Hood [chainpin] [In reply to] Can't Post

http://www.foxnews.com/...54dc049d70b0c12f2749


At least someone gets it.


(This post was edited by Rodred on Nov 7, 09 3:34)


Rodred

Nov 7, 09 3:41

Post #170 of 184 (183 views)
Re: Shooting at Ft. Hood [big kahuna] [In reply to] Can't Post

I really hope this opens a big can of worms and gets people within the military to open their eyes. There is no rational reason this man shouldn't have been gone long ago if only fellow officers had either opened their mouths or someone had listened to them.

Now we get to listen to the media report how harrassed he was and given the people in power these days and the amount their hearts bleed I am guessing that it will only get worse. I am wondering which we will get to mhear more of "We just werent there for him" or "We should have stopped the harrassment, lets create more rules"


big kahuna

Nov 7, 09 7:02

Post #171 of 184 (166 views)
Re: Shooting at Ft. Hood [Rodred] [In reply to] Can't Post

Now we get to listen to the media report how harrassed...

This one makes me laugh. First off, he's a major. How many enlisted persons are even going to think about harassing an officer about anything? And his fellow officers -- all highly educated and trained -- are going to? This one doesn't even pass the smell test. Also, if the military even thinks there's been some sort of harassment of ANY type going on, military investigators come down on the command like a ton of bricks. I've seen a two star flag officer relieved just for making what was construed as an inappropriate remark. The military the last twenty or so years has gotten to the point where people are being disciplined severely if there's even a whiff of racial or ethnic overtones to a word or phrase or conversation and it gets reported. Talk about Inspector General time...

There's a lot of political correctness going on with this one, and if we can't even have an open conversation about all aspects of this tragedy we're never going to come close to solving it. I don't think we should be rushing to make excuses like "he was just a nutbag who happened to be a Muslim" or "he was a Muslim who was a jihadi." The fact is, though, there are some disturbing aspects to this case. Maybe he had an underlying pathology and that he was going to kill even if he'd been an atheist, but he wasn't one of those. He went way off the reservation and some twisted notion of his caused him to think his religion gave him permission to do such an evil act. Perhaps he needed to delude himself enough to kill like he did and Islam provided him the excuse he required in order to be able to screw up the "courage" necessary or perhaps it didn't. But keeping blinders on and refusing to look at all facets of the issue just because we're overly solicitous to the feelings of one particular religion these days is just a recipe for more of this stuff.

Also, the official whitewash begins (From John Hinderaker, one of the smartest damn lawyers I've ever met):

President Obama's radio address today is on the Fort Hood massacre. Byron York has the full text.

Yesterday, Obama warned us against jumping to conclusions. Now, as we predicted, it's pretty clear that Obama has no intention of coming to any conclusions, ever. He ponders the deep mystery of why Malik Nadal Hasan, whom he refers to only as "an Army psychiatrist," thought it was a good idea to murder American soldiers:

We cannot fully know what leads a man to do such a thing.

There may be some cosmic sense in which that sentence is true; who can ever plumb the depths of the human heart? But we didn't elect Obama our novelist in chief. He is our commander in chief, and as such his prime responsibility is to protect and the defend the Constitution. And us. We make judgments about other people's motivations all the time; to take just one obvious example, juries in both civil and criminal cases are frequently required to decide "what leads a man to do such a thing."

In this particular case, Hasan seems to have left a pretty good trail of clues. But Obama has no interest in following them. Instead, the lesson he draws from the "tragedy" at Fort Hood is a paean to the diversity of our armed forces:

They are Americans of every race, faith, and station. They are Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus and nonbelievers. They are descendents of immigrants and immigrants themselves. They reflect the diversity that makes this America. But what they share is a patriotism like no other.

That's generally true, of course. But one soldier who didn't share that "patriotism like no other" was Malik Nadal Hasan. And, based on the fragmentary information available so far, it appears that there were pretty clear indications, well before Thursday's massacre, that Hasan had no business serving in the armed forces. One of the subjects that needs to be investigated is what set of assumptions, values and perhaps political pressures led responsible officials to allow Hasan--at best, an obviously troubled individual--to continue serving as a psychiatrist to wounded servicemen. That, along with "what leads a man to do such a thing," are questions that need to be investigated honestly and objectively, not viewed through the fog of Obama's politically-motivated agnosticism.


T.

(This post was edited by big kahuna on Nov 7, 09 7:14)


Rodred

Nov 7, 09 8:06

Post #172 of 184 (153 views)
Re: Shooting at Ft. Hood [big kahuna] [In reply to] Can't Post

Anyone who has served in the last 20 years know its absolute crap that he was harrassed. I watched a with 2 years left until retirement lose nearly everything because he refused a female soldiers offer of oral to get her through PLDC Land Nav.

All she did was suggest that he made advances on her and he was screwed and nearly lost his wife over it. As a "minority" it is that easy. Religous tolerance is on the same level.

More than likely what happened was he was running his mouth ( it seems to be the case from what we have heard so far) and was told he was out of line and got his Koran in a bunch.


balanceguy

Nov 7, 09 8:29

Post #173 of 184 (147 views)
Re: Shooting at Ft. Hood [Rodred] [In reply to] Can't Post

"According to a Killeen police report in August, an Army employee was charged with scratching Hasan's car, causing $1,000 in damage. Apartment manager John Thompson said the man charged was a soldier back from Iraq, who objected to Hasan's faith and ripped a bumper sticker off the major's car that said: "Allah is Love."

Kim Rosenthal, another neighbor, said Hasan didn't seem too upset by his scratched vehicle, even though it was damaged so badly that he got a new one. "He said it was Ramadan and that he had to forgive people," Rosenthal said. "He forgave him and moved on."

http://cbs3.com/...spect.2.1295780.html

Seems there may have been some harassment, however, I tend to agree with what BK has posted regarding this.


chainpin

Nov 7, 09 8:46

Post #174 of 184 (138 views)
Re: Shooting at Ft. Hood [Rodred] [In reply to] Can't Post

The articles I have been reading today about this filthy pig are disgusting.

How on earth is this guy being portrayed as the victim in all this?

We just had the largest terrorist attack on US soil since 9/11 and all everyone is worried about is how much stress this guy was under in his six figure job.

What a pathetic display of appeasement.

The day after this attack, Congress holds a vote to recognize the Yankees!!!

Fucking disgusting.

And instead of talking about why Muslims need to fix their broken religion, we get psychobabble bullshit about how the military needs more sensitivity training so Muslims are not negatively impacted by this event.

Everything is upside down and backwards.

The Government Media Complex is still trying to figure out the "motive."

The enemy has infiltrated our military and all we can do is sit back and say "what a tragedy, this Forth Hood thing," when in reality we should be asking how can we stop this stealth jihad by any and all means possible.

We might as well line up the body bags for the next killing spree, as we shed tears for the filthy pig who murdered our brave defenders of freedom.

"I really wish you would post more often. You always have some good stuff to say. I copied it below just in case someone missed it." BarryP to Chainpin on 10/21/06



YaHey

Nov 7, 09 9:18

Post #175 of 184 (127 views)
Re: Shooting at Ft. Hood [chainpin] [In reply to] Can't Post

It's more like mentally disturbed and psychotic individuals have infiltrated the military.

Terrorist attack? I think not.

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