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School Funding Protest - Chicago
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saltman
Jul 29, 08 7:17
Post #1 of 48 (287 views)
School Funding Protest - Chicago
Can't Post
http://news.yahoo.com/...hool_funding_protest
You know what, I think he just achieved his goal. I am not sure he even needs to go through with the protest. Job well done in my opinion. It will be interesting to see how the Winnetka community responds if the protest does go through. Its an extremely wealthy, white suburb, but it also has a pretty progressive history.
David in FL
Jul 29, 08 7:35
Post #2 of 48 (274 views)
Re: School Funding Protest - Chicago [saltman]
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Good God......
Local taxes going to support the local community.........that's bad? Only to a liberal. Of course you'd much prefer to take the taxes that the people of Winnetka pay and send them to the southside, where a great number pay little or no taxes at all.
As usual, this isn't about the fact that Chicago schools are spending
less
per student, it's about the fact that the Winnetka schools are spending
more
because they can afford to.
Imagine that, all those people living in subsidized housing on the south side just aren't generating the tax revenue that people who actually work for a living, own their own homes ,and pay taxes accordingly do. Who'da thunk?
"Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in a grey twilight that knows not victory nor defeat."
Theodore Roosevelt
Tridiot
Jul 29, 08 7:52
Post #3 of 48 (268 views)
Re: School Funding Protest - Chicago [David in FL]
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First we should take a look at how the $17k and $10k per student compare against total available funds for each area to get an idea on how each district is spending its budget. If $10k is 2% of the budget, and $17k is 1%, then in some respects it is apples to oranges to merely say they are spending less. Sure they are, but they'd be spending more percentage wise of their budget dollars.
The real issue is obviously as mentioned in the 3rd to last paragraph, how the state is involved in funding of schools. Many (most? I don't know) areas have moved away from the strict property tax system because of the concerns listed (in a naive way IMO) in the article. Districts/Counties often times pool a % of the available funds to be split up equally, then allocate the rest based on the contributions (mirroring the genius of the Congressional set up for representation). IMO, this is a good way to do it.
Property taxes for school funding (especially if the only funding source) is tricky, especially when comparing suburban to urban areas. And regardless of that breakdown, when you compare any area (urban, rural, suburban) that is heavy on ownership of propery to one that is heavy renters, the tax structure can be totally different.
saltman
Jul 29, 08 8:08
Post #4 of 48 (264 views)
Re: School Funding Protest - Chicago [David in FL]
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You know absolutely nothing about Chicago if you don't think the people of Chicago pay taxes. Property tax is just one small part. I will say this however, Chicago could spend a hell of lot more money on education if 100% of the tax revenue actually made it into the system and not into the pockets of politicians.
Still, last I checked, children have no choice what family they are born into, but I understand you want to penalize kids for the sins of their parents.
David in FL
Jul 29, 08 8:28
Post #5 of 48 (253 views)
Re: School Funding Protest - Chicago [saltman]
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I lived and worked in Chicago for over 5 years. I know Winnetka and I know the south side. You?
Nice try at the usual attempt at misdirection too.......Awwwww, you want to penalize those poor kids. Only a liberal can claim that the kids are being
penalized
because someone else has
more
than they do. Of course, you don't understand that because it's all about class envy and making sure that everyone is miserable to the same degree. $10k is only insufficient in this case because someone has more........there wouldn't be any protest at all if Winnetka was spending $10k per student too.
Show me how that the funding that both districts have in common, i.e. state and federal funds is disproportionate, and I'll throw the bullshit flag right with you. But I'll bet you can't do that.......
"Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in a grey twilight that knows not victory nor defeat."
Theodore Roosevelt
ajfranke
Jul 29, 08 8:37
Post #6 of 48 (246 views)
Re: School Funding Protest - Chicago [saltman]
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Why is $10,000 per student insufficient?
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This forum is going to be a place of civil discourse, and those who wish to foment hate and discord are no longer welcome here. -- slowman 11/8/04
Art Franke
blueraider_mike
Jul 29, 08 8:47
Post #7 of 48 (241 views)
Re: School Funding Protest - Chicago [ajfranke]
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The whole problem with all of this is the notion of money equates good education. The answer is parental involvement equals a good education.
Saltman brings up a point - really its a quandry, why punish the kids that are born to poor parents. I would argue their being poor is NOT the problem, the problem is their parents don't care enough do be involved (there are plenty of rich kids with parents that don't care either). No matter how much money we spend, it will not make a difference. Some will argue, well the parents are too busy working that they can't participate - to which I will say BS.
I live near Nashville; today in our local paper they had the results of the NCLB and some of the schools haven't improved over the 5 years. They cry fowl by saying "its unfunded". Test scores should be a reflection of their education - doesn't take money, only parents that care. IMO.
ajfranke
Jul 29, 08 8:50
Post #8 of 48 (238 views)
Re: School Funding Protest - Chicago [blueraider_mike]
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I would just like a simple answer to my question. Why is $10,000 not sufficient? I sent my kids to very fancy private schools and it didn't cost that much most years.
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This forum is going to be a place of civil discourse, and those who wish to foment hate and discord are no longer welcome here. -- slowman 11/8/04
Art Franke
MJuric
Jul 29, 08 9:00
Post #9 of 48 (232 views)
Re: School Funding Protest - Chicago [ajfranke]
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Chicago appears to pay around 9,282$ per student. New Trier, 17,184$. Oh but wait...the state average is 8,340$. Maybe everyone in the state should take the day off and head to Chicago :-)
Again this has very little to do with funding and everything to do with community.
~Matt
ajfranke
Jul 29, 08 9:04
Post #10 of 48 (228 views)
Re: School Funding Protest - Chicago [MJuric]
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I am going out on a limb here, but I am guessing they have a Taj Mahal of a School Administration building filled with very highly paid people that never talk to a student.
Just a guess. Here in Broward County, Florida, we call it the Crystal Palace. It didn't do so well when Hurricane Wilma came to visit.
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This forum is going to be a place of civil discourse, and those who wish to foment hate and discord are no longer welcome here. -- slowman 11/8/04
Art Franke
saltman
Jul 29, 08 9:12
Post #11 of 48 (223 views)
Re: School Funding Protest - Chicago [David in FL]
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And how long ago did you live in Chicago? I have lived here, on the South Side for the last 10 years and counting. I have also volunteer tutored at some of the local schools on occasion, so yeah I know a little bit about the schools.
Of course, you don't understand that because it's all about class envy and making sure that everyone is miserable to the same degree.
Completely wrong. It not about making sure everyone is miserable. You contradict yourself quite often. You seem to think $10K/student is enough, so then why would Winnetka students be miserable with $10K/student?? My point is I would like for government dollars to be distributed equally. Infrastructure/Education/Defense, these are things that shouldn't be slanted towards the wealthy, its ridiculous.
Show me how that the funding that both districts have in common, i.e. state and federal funds is disproportionate,
Absolutely NOT my argument, not even worthy of a response.
$10k is only insufficient in this case because someone has more
No, it seems to me the wealthy families have determined $10K is insufficient and that $17K is needed. If you take a tour through a CPS school and New Trier, you might agree.
Tridiot
Jul 29, 08 9:12
Post #12 of 48 (224 views)
Re: School Funding Protest - Chicago [MJuric]
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So then New Trier is just fiscally irresponsible to an epic proportion right? Double the state average spending, without double the performance. They should obviously cut per student funding by $7k and there would be no dip in performance...
saltman
Jul 29, 08 9:14
Post #13 of 48 (223 views)
Re: School Funding Protest - Chicago [blueraider_mike]
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There is no argument from me about the importance of parents, but our tax system shouldn't accentuate the problem.
MJuric
Jul 29, 08 9:15
Post #14 of 48 (221 views)
Re: School Funding Protest - Chicago [ajfranke]
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I send my kid to a fairly highly ranked private school and it costs around half that.
I do have to provide transportation, but last I heard it appears that 25% of the students get some or full tuition waivers as well. We have a very highly ranked private school that charges around that. But we are talking a school with a max of 10-11 students per class and many times classes are 6-7 students per. All kids are required to have a laptop and several other "Perks". This school also has a 99% college placement rate.
10K a kid in a class of 20 is 200K a class. Seems like that would be more than enough to educate them...no? Even paying the teachers 100K a year you still have 100K for over head. That's 5K a year per student to provide books, a place to sit, transportation and probably breakfast and lunch.
There's around 180 school days if memory serves. Figure 1000$ per student per year for the cost of the building space...and that seems high to me. Another 1000$ for books, lab fee's and school expenditures...again seems high and that leaves 3000 per student for travel and food. That's about 17$ a day. If you can't provide 2 school lunches and trip back and forth on a bus for 17$ a day...well then you got problems.
I know that's a very rough breakdown but I agree 10K a year for crappy education? I'm also 100% sure that the average wage for a teacher in the Chicago school district is NOT 100K even with employee costs, taxes etc.
~Matt
BarryP
Jul 29, 08 9:16
Post #15 of 48 (221 views)
Re: School Funding Protest - Chicago [ajfranke]
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Quote
I would just like a simple answer to my question. Why is $10,000 not sufficient? I sent my kids to very fancy private schools and it didn't cost that much most years.
Did that $10,000 include $300,000 to educate any mentaly handicaped kids requiring special transportation and services.
I haven't read the article, but we've been through this before Art and you continue to ignore it. Private schools aren't required to educate expensive children. Public schools are.
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saltman
Jul 29, 08 9:18
Post #16 of 48 (222 views)
Re: School Funding Protest - Chicago [MJuric]
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And I suppose you think $8,340 buys as much in Chicago as it does in your average town of 15,000. Also the equivalent private schools to New Trier in Chicago (The Latin School / Francis Parker / U of C Lab) run about $15K-$20K per student per year.
(This post was
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by saltman on Jul 29, 08 9:30)
saltman
Jul 29, 08 9:26
Post #17 of 48 (215 views)
Re: School Funding Protest - Chicago [BarryP]
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Another thing people completely ignore is the decades of ignored infrastructure repair at CPS. Its been better in the last 10 years, but still a long long way to go. Its very difficult to climb out of that hole. So where each New Trier student might get a $3000 laptop, that same $3000 in Chicago is paying for updated HVAC at a Chicago school or network routing that New Trier has had for the last 5 years.
MJuric
Jul 29, 08 9:30
Post #18 of 48 (213 views)
Re: School Funding Protest - Chicago [Tridiot]
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Well if you compare the
Naperville district
to the
New Trier
you might find exactly what you're talking about.
Looking at ACT scores and PSAE results these districts compare rather favorably. New Trier does come out marginally better with ACT scores but it's pretty much a wash with the PSAE's at the 11th grade level.
Diversification is about the same with Naperville having more minorities and more students eligible for reduced lunch 2% for Naperville versus 0% for New Trier.
Naperville spends 9,806$ per student with 17 students per teacher, while New Trier Spends 17,184$ with 12 students per teacher.
They should obviously cut per student funding by $7k and there would be no dip in performance...
Not saying they should, because obviously New Trier feels it's important enough to pay those kind of taxes. I am saying however they aren't getting the same "Bang for their buck" as Naperville under very similar conditions.
~Matt
David in FL
Jul 29, 08 9:32
Post #19 of 48 (211 views)
Re: School Funding Protest - Chicago [saltman]
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You seem to think $10K/student is enough, so then why would Winnetka students be miserable with $10K/student??
Ok.....answer Art's question. Why is $10k
not
enough.......especially given that it's
above
the state average? My point was that you can't stand the thought of someone having more than anyone else, even when what they have is already deemed sufficient by the rest of the state.
My point is I would like for government dollars to be distributed equally. Infrastructure/Education/Defense, these are things that shouldn't be slanted towards the wealthy, its ridiculous.
Huh? Look at my next question where I asked you to show me how the state/federal funding is disproportionate. You know, the question that you answer "
Absolutely NOT my argument, not even worthy of a response
."
So, is it your argument or isn't it? Is the government funding disproportionate and "slanted towards the wealthy" or not? If so, show me. If on the other hand, the two districts receive proportionate government funding, then the only argument left is that of class envy, i.e. they have more than me and it's just not fair......
"Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in a grey twilight that knows not victory nor defeat."
Theodore Roosevelt
saltman
Jul 29, 08 9:43
Post #20 of 48 (202 views)
Re: School Funding Protest - Chicago [David in FL]
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Why is $10k
not
enough.......especially given that it's
above
the state average?
Because somebody else (with a far superior school system) detemined it wasn't enough. Pretty simple concept.
And, state and federal government is not the only government. Local government should not be entity determining where/how much money is going towards education. If this is such a great system, why aren't other major public utilities funded in the same manner?
(This post was
edited
by saltman on Jul 29, 08 9:45)
MJuric
Jul 29, 08 9:48
Post #21 of 48 (197 views)
Re: School Funding Protest - Chicago [saltman]
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No actually that's part of my point. It's lacking any type of judgment for a person to say "Hey they're spending more on "X" than we are and that's not fair" without taking into consideration any conditions.
I posted a comparison of Naperville and New Trier.
Granted I would expect for New Trier to be higher just based on location. However they are running 12 students per class and not out performing a relatively expensive suburb that is close to 8K per student cheaper.
Again not an Apples to Apples comparison but close.
OTOH Chicago is also outspending Napperville and not performing anywhere NEAR Napperville.
OTOH My district which is very inexpensive in comparison to Napperville, New Trier or Chicago spends slightly less than Napperville and Slightly less than Chicago. Our district has a similar diversification and economic ranking as Chicago District and only slightly outperforms the Chicago District.
Our 8,652$ per student is by no means comparable to a Chicago 9,282$ per student, yet we perform about the same. OTOH the comparison between Napperville and New Trier would indicate Napperville is performing as well as New Trier on what I would consider comparably less money.
In short, money has FAR FAR less to do with performance than other factors.
Naperville could cut their spending to My districts levels, operate in a far more expensive area, and they would still FAR FAR outperform my district. New trier could probably drop funding to with in 15-20% of Napervilles and if properly administered not effect performance. OTOH Chicago could double the money spent per student and NEVER come close to either Naperville or New Trier.
~Matt
saltman
Jul 29, 08 9:55
Post #22 of 48 (194 views)
Re: School Funding Protest - Chicago [MJuric]
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In short, money has FAR FAR less to do with performance than other factors.
Again no argument from me there, but Naperville and Winnetka have not ignored their infrastructural needs for years either. Again, what we would all need to see is how much money goes to educational tools per student vs. maintenance and repair of schools.
David in FL
Jul 29, 08 9:58
Post #23 of 48 (190 views)
Re: School Funding Protest - Chicago [saltman]
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Because somebody else (with a far superior school system) detemined it wasn't enough. Pretty simple concept.
Someone else has more, therefore I don't have enough.
Thank you for making the point.
"Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in a grey twilight that knows not victory nor defeat."
Theodore Roosevelt
MJuric
Jul 29, 08 10:15
Post #24 of 48 (187 views)
Re: School Funding Protest - Chicago [saltman]
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According to the same site...
Napperville.
Instructional62%
Student and staff support11%
Administration10%
Other expenditures16%
Chicago
Instructional60%
Student and staff support13%
Administration9%
Other expenditures18%
It would appear that "Expenditures" on Instruction and staff are roughly equal at 73% for both. Chicago is 1% down on administration and 2% up on "Other expenditures". By this at very least it doesn't appear they are spending more money on "Infrastructure" which I would expect to show up under "Other" or a major difference in "Student and staff support" which there is not.
~Matt
saltman
Jul 29, 08 10:21
Post #25 of 48 (178 views)
Re: School Funding Protest - Chicago [David in FL]
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How about someone else believes they need more and are proving what more can do? That's a little different.
But what's your point?
We are talking about children.
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