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Really glad those green jobs are being created.

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burnman

Nov 6, 09 9:50

Post #26 of 56 (204 views)

Re: Really glad those green jobs are being created. [chainpin] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To:

That really doesn't seem to be a specifically liberal feature of our government anymore

Mine was an intentionally loaded statement and I concur with you observation--it just so happens that MA is the most liberal state in the country, and the green jobs movement is a Leftist construct.

This country has a blue heart with red pockets. On matters that affect societal and global responsibility, most folks tend 'liberal.' On matters that affect personal wealth and individual rights, most folks tend 'conservative.' Does that make us capitalist socialists? We no longer endure a two party system. It's one party, all politicians, with no incentive to help constituents beyond the sustainability of a job that affords their posh lifestyle. IMO, the green jobs movement is not a sole construct of either side. One side had a bleeding heart, the other side saw an empty pocket. Both get to claim that they're saving the planet and helping our struggling economy. The common success of a single political system.

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Hunting is only a sport if your prey is human and he shoots back.

Slowman

Nov 6, 09 10:09

Post #27 of 56 (203 views)

Re: Really glad those green jobs are being created. [MJuric] [In reply to]	Can't Post

you are a human time suck! matt, you can busily search wikipedia, or you can learn about the history of the SRC, if you want to. here is one history of the SRC, the first two of four paragraphs reprinted here:

"The integrated circuit (IC) industry emerged in the late fifties in the U.S., took form in the sixties, and experienced rapid growth in the seventies. In 1979, when Japanese companies captured 42% of the U.S. market for 16 kbit DRAMs and converted Japan's integrated circuit trade balance with the U.S. from a negative $122 M in 1979 to a positive $40 M in 1980, the U.S. industry became aware that its dominance of the IC industry was challenged, and that it was in the best interests of the industry to invest organizational effort into strengthening its position in the global semiconductor marketplace.

"U.S. government and private groups recognized the importance of IC industry leadership and competitiveness. Potential negative impacts of a loss of leadership were described in widely circulated reports. All agreed that the preservation of U.S. industry leadership in semiconductors was important."

if you have some evidence, or at least a rational basis for suspicion, that this published history is fake, please advise, otherwise, i hope you'll stipulate to the true history that many of us lived through. during the late 70s/early 80s it was widely and alarmingly reported that NEC overtook all american companies and became the worldwide leader in semiconductor manufacture, and SRC was the offspring of this development.

now, certainly, it's true that the U.S. government provided leadership, and some funds, but that the actual funding was miniscule compared to the return. and that's the point! the very best use of government money is in private-public partnerships just like this one.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

ajfranke

Nov 6, 09 10:17

Post #28 of 56 (201 views)

Re: Really glad those green jobs are being created. [Slowman] [In reply to]	Can't Post

It's generally credited in large part for the turnaround that allowed U.S. semiconductor makers to reassert themselves as global leaders.

Not to suggest that there is anything wrong with making bicycles, and there is certainly nothing wrong with creating and growing a bicycle manufacturing business, but the above sentence shows that making bicycles is exactly what you were doing during the 80's. If you think that joke of public corporation that accomplished nothing other than pumping earmark dollars into yet another ethanol style boondoggle is what allowed Intel and the rest of them to prosper, you really need to stick with bicycles.

Again, no offense intended, but I don't try to tell you about the bicycle manufacturing business because I don't want to sound as ignorant as you do in the above sentence.

Given that your post springs from your having your own set of facts like those above, the rest of it is not worth addressing, though I do wonder how you can actually believe the first of your two (valid) points given how you vote. That is right up there with part of your justification for supporting Obama springing for his support for nuclear power I suppose. You will probably get those nuclear power plants from him just about the time you see him support those low corporate tax rates and decreased corporate health care costs and other burdens.

____
This forum is going to be a place of civil discourse, and those who wish to foment hate and discord are no longer welcome here. -- slowman 11/8/04

Art Franke

BarryP

Nov 6, 09 10:56

Post #29 of 56 (193 views)

Re: Really glad those green jobs are being created. [ajfranke] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Quote:

So sending jobs to China is good for the company, which makes owner rich.......doesn't that then trickle down?

Also, just so I get this straight, sending jobs to China is bad........but only if done so under a Democrat president.

I missed you. Thanks for the comedy.
-----------------------------Barry Pollock (aka Baron Von Speedypants)
I'M DYSLEXIC......GET OVER IT!
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

burnman

Nov 6, 09 11:19

Post #30 of 56 (190 views)

Re: Really glad those green jobs are being created. [ajfranke] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To:

This is not to take a swipe at the company. From what I can tell, they are a well run company with a quality product that is just making an intelligent decision. This is to take a swipe at the policies that make disasters like this and ethanol and any number of other green fiascos possible.

There are lots of unemployed kids here that would be well served to get a job at that plant and more than happy to compete with their counterparts in China and basically kick their ass. They aren't being allowed to do this though due to many government policies ranging from minimum wage laws to environmental laws to health care entitlements to other taxes. We keep doing more and more of the same, and we keep getting increasingly worse results. Why do you suppose that is?

Technically, the company is neither well run, nor does it make a quality product - at least by today's standards of success. I could make a platinum-based catalytic converter for your car that is three times more effective than the one that currently resides in it. The cost of raw materials, fabrication, and integration would be 4 to 5 times greater, but it's a more effective piece of equipment. In doing so, have I made a quality product? If I receive 'green' funding from local/state/federal tax resources, then farm the jobs out to China, have I run my business well? My profit margin would be up, but would be distributed to fewer domestic employees at the same tax burden. Good for me and China, bad for everyone else.

Green fiascos are not necessarily a failure on the part of business or technology. They are driven by financial and political opportunism. Ethanol was a great idea, at one point. It was going to be a domestic fuel source, with potential for reduced environmental impact, produced by domestic jobs. As the demand for corn shifts, people from rural Nebraska to Manhattan see the beacon of profit. Prices spike, supplies drop, now Joe Schmo down the road can't afford to feed his cows and subsequently his family. Yes, ethanol was a green fiasco .... but only in the sense of $$$ being green.

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Hunting is only a sport if your prey is human and he shoots back.

Slowman

Nov 6, 09 11:44

Post #31 of 56 (188 views)

Re: Really glad those green jobs are being created. [ajfranke] [In reply to]	Can't Post

"Again, no offense intended, but I don't try to tell you about the bicycle manufacturing business because I don't want to sound as ignorant as you do in the above sentence."

how could anyone take offense at your gentlemanly prose? ;-)

"Given that your post springs from your having your own set of facts like those above, the rest of it is not worth addressing, though I do wonder how you can actually believe the first of your two (valid) points given how you vote."

the SRC's history is a matter of record, a matter of history, your protests notwithstanding. as to my voting record, the obama and schwarzennegger platforms were both pro small business, which is why i voted for them every time i could, even tho they were from different parties.

ethanol? i agree with you. in fact, my guess is that you and i would agree on most of the policies that attend entrepreneurial growth. but national labs, public-private labs, whether it's semiconductors, fuel cells, bombs, missiles, nuclear power, i don't think anyone seriously doubts their efficacy.

are you familiar with the kauffman foundation? its raison d'etre is entrepreneurship and, i would guess, they're much more favorably disposed to conservatism than liberalism. nevertheless, i find that what they actually discover in their research supports things i believe we (as a government) ought to invest in. for example, you'll find their fact sheets here, one of which is entitled, "Benchmarking Economic Transformation in the States." at the bottom of this (it's short) are bullet points, showing the characteristics of top-ranking states versus bottom-ranking, the "ranking" being the rate at which those in each state found new businesses. i'd be interested in whether you think those bullet points are valid assessments, and what policies tend to work to foster small business development.

off to swimming now...

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Just Old Again

Nov 6, 09 12:28

Post #32 of 56 (170 views)

Re: Really glad those green jobs are being created. [Slowman] [In reply to]	Can't Post

That study must be wrong. New Jersey can't be in the top five for new businesses. Why, our newly-elected governor ran on a platform that decried the horrible taxation in this state that must be driving entrepreneurship across the border (to somewhere, beats me).
-----------------------------------
Ken Lehner

"We are on our last bag of Life" - the wife

ajfranke

Nov 6, 09 14:19

Post #33 of 56 (151 views)

Re: Really glad those green jobs are being created. [Slowman] [In reply to]	Can't Post

OK, that study is even funnier than your attributing the success of Intel et al to some government program. The study was done in 2007. Since then, CA is crashing and burning as we speak. Lots of people voting with their feet with large outmigration. The study is all about human capital, which is great and important, but also mobile. It is leaving many of those top flight states and heading to the bottom flight states. Texas, in particular, is doing great.

There is nothing in that study seemingly about government policies, particularly taxation rates. There was a great article in the WSJ or NY Times or something a few days ago about how the blue state bargain used to be high taxes but being used to support strong infrastructure including roads and education. This bargain has been broken with high blue state taxes being used basically to support high pay and benefits for those providing public services rather than for the services themselves. There are now about 10,000 retired civil servants receiving six figure pensions plus benefits all indexed to inflation. One billion a year out the door for only 10,000 people. Fine for them, but it sucks for you.

Do you actually think CA has good roads and education compared to Texas? Look around. This isn't Kansas anymore, nor is it 1975. People are moving to Texas and away from CA, NY, NJ and MA. There is a reason.

Only two years have passed, and that study already failed the test of time.
____
This forum is going to be a place of civil discourse, and those who wish to foment hate and discord are no longer welcome here. -- slowman 11/8/04

Art Franke

MJuric

Nov 6, 09 14:42

Post #34 of 56 (145 views)

Re: Really glad those green jobs are being created. [Slowman] [In reply to]	Can't Post

you are a human time suck!

Well I try to actually back up what I say with some facts...unlike some people :-)

when Japanese companies captured 42% of the U.S. market for 16 kbit DRAMs and converted Japan's integrated circuit trade balance with the U.S. from a negative $122 M in 1979 to a positive $40 M in 1980, the U.S. industry became aware that its dominance of the IC industry was challenged,

Do you know what a DRAM is? It stands for Dynamic Random Access Memory. As stated before to date Japan and Asian companies STILL control the majority of the US market in memory products. In fact I believe they control a FAR larger portion of the memory market than 42% at this point as IIRC the top 7 memory manufacturers are from Asian companies.

U.S. government and private groups recognized the importance of IC industry leadership and competitiveness. Potential negative impacts of a loss of leadership were described in widely circulated reports. All agreed that the preservation of U.S. industry leadership in semiconductors was important.

Again the SRC is almost entirely funded by PRIVATE industry. This is no different than any other industry that groups it's resources.

There is nothing stated here that claims the SRC was responsible for "Saving Intel" or even that the federal government funded it.

if you have some evidence, or at least a rational basis for suspicion, that this published history is fake, please advise,

Clearly what is stated is true, your interpretation of it is clearly false.

otherwise, i hope you'll stipulate to the true history that many of us lived through. during the late 70s/early 80s it was widely and alarmingly reported that NEC overtook all american companies and became the worldwide leader in semiconductor manufacture,

Again NEC and other JApanese companies overtook US companies in the area of manufacturing memory, specifically DRAM. And again they still do dominate this area, even more so.

It was the decision by Intel to switch their focus from DRAM manufacturing to CPU manufacturing that was the turning point, not the creation of the SRC.

Prior to the SRC Intel had already developed the 8086, 8088 and likely the 286 which was really their springboard to to the x86 architecture and dominating the market.

In fact even more specifically it was Intels allowance of a fairly open architecture and the development of "Clones" that really skyrocketed Intel, which had NOTHING to do with the actual CPU development. Had Intel taken the path of Apple they would likely have been crushed in the market anyway.

now, certainly, it's true that the U.S. government provided leadership, and some funds, but that the actual funding was miniscule compared to the return. and that's the point! the very best use of government money is in private-public partnerships just like this one.

The actual funding was miniscule and as pointed out below the "Leadership" even less. My contention is that the government funding wouldn't have mattered. The private sector would have created this with or without government funding which basically means it would have been beneficial to them and THAT'S why they did it.

The claim that "This was what saved Intel" is a HUGE stretch at best completely specious at worst. If in fact the technology that made Intel successful was created in or because of the SRC then that technology would have been available to all the member companies and certainly they would all be "World leaders". Clearly something else took place that propelled Intel to the dominating force that it is today OTHER than the SRC

Here is an excerpt from the SRC's 1983 annual report HERE

In late 1981, executives of major U.S.
companies that produce and/or use semiconductor
products recognized that this
erosion of the generic technology base
coupled with government-financed efforts
in other countries constituted an important
competitive threat to their industry.
Recognizing that a government-based
response to this threat was unlikely, they
decided to undertake a cooperative
industry-initiated response. After considerable
discussion, a concept emerged
that has become the SRC. This concept is
that the SRC will plan, promote, coordinate,
conduct, and sponsor research in order to:
Obtain improved understanding of semiconductor
materials, devices, and
phenomena;

In this PDF they also have the balance sheets included. As far as I can tell in the founding year of 1982 and the year of 1983 there is absolutely ZERO income from government grants. Maybe you have some other numbers to show otherwise but here is their claimed revenue stream

For the year ended For the period from
December 31, 1983 February 23, 1982 to
December 31, 1982

Revenue:
Membership fees $5,660,757 $3,838,230
Interest Income 425,367 43,510
Total revenue 6,086,124 3,881,740

Doesn't look to me like ANY government money went to funding the SRC and that the corporations, members funded this themselves.

So I may be a "Time sucker", but at least I try to look things up and not make things up.

Feel free to dispute any of the above...or simply discuss sports.

~Matt

Tridiot

Nov 6, 09 14:47

Post #35 of 56 (141 views)

Re: Really glad those green jobs are being created. [MJuric] [In reply to]	Can't Post

The "dotcom" era also included massive run ups in stock and profits by networking technology companies, which do in fact manufacture a product. So that era was not about totally physical products.

Slowman

Nov 6, 09 14:55

Post #36 of 56 (141 views)

Re: Really glad those green jobs are being created. [ajfranke] [In reply to]	Can't Post

"OK, that study is even funnier than your attributing the success of Intel et al to some government program. The study was done in 2007. Since then, CA is crashing and burning as we speak"

you're right, it is. but, as a californian, i can tell you our fine state has been crashing and burning for some time now. nevertheless, our state is typically crashing/burning or it's a phoenix, rising from the ashes. and when it rises, it generally rises as a lot of little phoenixes, in the form of start-ups.

that's what will probably happen again. our unemployment rate in 1992/3/, during the "great white collar layoff," was 9.4% and 9.5%. but this simply predated california's biggest spurt of growth, and entrepreneurialism, in its history.

"Do you actually think CA has good roads and education compared to Texas?"

as i'm sure you know, california leads (#2) texas in gross state product (it's 50% higher than texas), and it's also about 10% higher than texas in per capita gsp. this, altho california is primarily not an industrial state, rather an agricultural state, growing the majority of america's fruits, nuts and vegetables (and it's america's #1 dairy state). while california ebbs and flows, it does fine.

"People are moving to Texas and away from CA, NY, NJ and MA"

well, art, i'm sure some people are. i know one guy who did. but, every state (there are 19) that are above the average in per capita gross state product voted for obama in the last election, save alaska and wyoming. these "liberal" states tend to spend on infrastructure and education. they tend to be states that have embraced an information-based economy, and that's where start-ups are more likely to occur. these are the states poised to do best over the next generation.

california's single biggest problem, in my view, is the architecture of its constitution, mandating a 2/3 majority of its legislature in order to pass a budget. this makes for gridlock squared, or cubed. but, this doesn't stop the state's penchant for entrepreneurship.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

MJuric

Nov 6, 09 14:55

Post #37 of 56 (138 views)

Re: Really glad those green jobs are being created. [Slowman] [In reply to]	Can't Post

the SRC's history is a matter of record, a matter of history

As a matter of fact it is, but not the history you're portraying. Neither is the history of Intel portrayed as you suggest, "Saved" by the SRC and by false extension the US government.

In 1983 Intel's sales exceeded 1 Billion dollars. In 2006 Intels annual sales were ~40B with 5 billion invested in R & D. Assuming a similar percentage of revenue spent on R & D in 1983 Intel likely spent ~125 million in R & D the year after the SRC was founded. By comparison the SRC's ENTIRE revenue for 1983 was ~6 million.

Please explain to me how a research conglomerate of multiple companies with an entire budget of 6 million is responsible for "Saving" a member company with an R & D budget almost 20 times larger?

~Matt

Slowman

Nov 6, 09 15:26

Post #38 of 56 (134 views)

Re: Really glad those green jobs are being created. [MJuric] [In reply to]	Can't Post

"Do you know what a DRAM is? Japan and Asian companies STILL control the majority of the US market in memory products."

yes, it's a commodity, low margin, business that U.S. shouldn't be focused on. owning DRAM manufacturing is like owning running shoe manufacturing. time suck! time suck!

"Well I try to actually back up what I say with some facts...unlike some people :-)"

i haven't found these yet, but, maybe, like an easter egg hunt, they'll pop up if i keep looking.

"Again the SRC is almost entirely funded by PRIVATE industry."

i think you have to go back and look at how the SRC started and what it was like in its early years. now it has largely morphed into an industry cooperative, but that's because it's now a strong industry, compared to the early days of the organization. intel, IBM, etc., each have roughly $6 billion in R&D budgets, but our semiconductor industry was getting its lunch handed to it in the late 70s. what's instructive is to see what the organization accomplished during its formative years, and the government's level of involvement then (tho the government has by no means given up supporting this org, it funds it with multiple grants well into the millions).

i know that the whole idea of the government being involved in anything, matt, is anathema to you. i'm willing to admit that sometimes government does something that doesn't work, if you're willing to admit that sometimes it does something that does work. this is just one of those cases, and when you kick and scratch and try to make a case against the src, you're showing that you just won't admit anything that goes against the grain of your personal beliefs.

"Feel free to dispute any of the above"

i don't remember with precision how much money the national science foundation invested in the SRC in its formative years, and i'm not going to get further sucked in to your factless assertions. but if you'd like to check, you'll see that not only did the NSF invest millions to help get SRC going (the SRC's founder was the NSF's director directly after founding the SRC), the NSF still joint-funds projects including, but not limited to, $6 million last year for multicore chip designs.

the national science foundation's mission was and is to do exactly this sort of thing. as opposed to NASA, NOAA, and the NIH, this organization does not own its own labs, rather, these sorts of public-private consortia are what it does.

"...or simply discuss sports."

much better idea!

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

ajfranke

Nov 6, 09 17:47

Post #39 of 56 (120 views)

Re: Really glad those green jobs are being created. [Slowman] [In reply to]	Can't Post

As usual, you don't answer simple questions. Instead you deflect. I have no doubt that CA spends more on education and infrastructure; they just don't get what they pay for. That is exactly my point. You moved up to the mountains for a reason.

CA education used to be outstanding. Now it is third rate. They used to have the best roads, electric grid and water resources. Now they are living off the same infrastructure your grandfather's built with several times the population. CA can't build roads, power plants or water distributions systems anymore. Don't even get me started on oil wells or refineries. All the while, its citizens continue to pay; they just get public service pension payments instead of public services.

My sister was the administrator for some construction at UCAL Davis medical school. Lab space was budgeted at over $600/sq. ft., a price which about made me spit up my diet coke. Hard to imagine that it would cost over 1/3rd that in FL, where I used to live.

So don't respond to me with GDP numbers GDP and the like. Just because you pay $1 billion for a highway, doesn't mean you are getting something more than what Texas paid $200 million for. Talk to me about real services. In CA you aren't getting your money's worth. I am pretty sure you know this; you just refuse to acknowledge this fact since it doesn't meet your story line.

Net migration is out of CA on the order of nearly 2000/day, 681,000 total in 2007 alone. The intellectual capital argument pales in the face of that massive migration. Your state is out of control. It is part of the past. The choice of Americans today is if we, as a country, want to be part of the past, or part of the future. If we follow CA, the answer will be the former.
____
This forum is going to be a place of civil discourse, and those who wish to foment hate and discord are no longer welcome here. -- slowman 11/8/04

Art Franke

Slowman

Nov 6, 09 19:40

Post #40 of 56 (111 views)

Re: Really glad those green jobs are being created. [ajfranke] [In reply to]	Can't Post

"As usual, you don't answer simple questions. Instead you deflect."

i'm sorry you feel that way, art. i tried to be as straightforward as i could, backing my views up with numbers.

"I have no doubt that CA spends more on education and infrastructure; they just don't get what they pay for. That is exactly my point."

so say you. unsupported.

"You moved up to the mountains for a reason."

you mean i moved up to the mountains of california for a reason.

"Net migration is out of CA on the order of nearly 2000/day, 681,000 total in 2007 alone."

we do have net emigration, art. but that doesn't keep our population from growing. we have 38.5 million residents, up 1.1% from the prior year. so, if more want to leave then want to arrive, maybe that's not a bad thing for us, and for them, esp if they're educational or vocational skills (or lack thereof) are best suited for another region.

[snip a bunch of raving stuff]

come on out our way for a vacation, art, where you can watch 38.9 mlllion (next year) people continue to build the first 21st century economy state.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

ajfranke

Nov 6, 09 20:27

Post #41 of 56 (106 views)

Re: Really glad those green jobs are being created. [Slowman] [In reply to]	Can't Post

It is hard to know what to say. The states that you claim are poised to compete are all shedding population via outmigration.

NY: Outmigration totaling 3.4% of their population in 2007 alone.
NJ: 1.6%
MA: 1.9%
CA: 1.9%
MN: 0.6%
CT: 1.0%

On the other hand, those out of luck states have people flocking to them:

ID: 5.0%
AZ: 4.8%
GA: 3.4%
NC: 3.2%
TX: 1.8%

And the list goes on.

CA is apparently about to elect Jerry Brown as their new governor. I like and respect Jerry Brown, though I disagree essentially 100% with everything he says. He was your youngest governor ever. Should he be elected again, he will be your oldest governor ever. CA lives today off the infrastructure his father built when he was governor.

CA's future would seem to be the reaping of purposeful self destruction. It promises to be a future of ever lower living standards as its population flees. If you think your government there is going to save you, you should rethink it. As usual, government is the problem. Millions are fleeing for a reason. I guess they are all just too stupid to recognize the bright future which they desert for those wastelands of smaller and more effective government and lower taxes.
____
This forum is going to be a place of civil discourse, and those who wish to foment hate and discord are no longer welcome here. -- slowman 11/8/04

Art Franke

MJuric

Nov 6, 09 21:10

Post #42 of 56 (104 views)

Re: Really glad those green jobs are being created. [Slowman] [In reply to]	Can't Post

i think you have to go back and look at how the SRC started and what it was like in its early years.

Well I believed I posted the following already.

I posted this which is taken directly from the 1983 "Year end notes". The "Early years" consisted of a budget of ~6 million dollars ALL of which was from "Memebership dues" and interest.
m
In late 1981, executives of major U.S.
companies that produce and/or use semiconductor
products recognized that this
erosion of the generic technology base
coupled with government-financed efforts
in other countries constituted an important
competitive threat to their industry.
Recognizing that a government-based
response to this threat was unlikely, they
decided to undertake a cooperative
industry-initiated response. After considerable
discussion, a concept emerged
that has become the SRC. This concept is
that the SRC will plan, promote, coordinate,
conduct, and sponsor research in order to:
Obtain improved understanding of semiconductor
materials, devices, and
phenomena;

In this PDF they also have the balance sheets included. As far as I can tell in the founding year of 1982 and the year of 1983 there is absolutely ZERO income from government grants. Maybe you have some other numbers to show otherwise but here is their claimed revenue stream

For the year ended For the period from
December 31, 1983 February 23, 1982 to
December 31, 1982

Revenue:
Membership fees $5,660,757 $3,838,230
Interest Income 425,367 43,510
Total revenue 6,086,124 3,881,740

Again as far as I can tell no government involvement in the "Early years". If you have something else to show otherwise feel free.

i'm willing to admit that sometimes government does something that doesn't work, if you're willing to admit that sometimes it does something that does work.

I'm more than willing to admit that it does "Ok" work in some areas, military for instance. However you can't just say "The government did this well" and expect me to take it without anything backing it up.

You seem to think the SRC was A) instrumental in "Saving the US semiconductor industry and B) that the government was instrumental in founding the SRC.

As far as I can tell neither is even close to the truth.

If you have something to show otherwise please let me see it.

i don't remember with precision how much money the national science foundation invested in the SRC in its formative years, and i'm not going to get further sucked in to your factless assertions.

Factless assertions? I pulled it right off the SRC site and from their end of year notes from 1983. If you can't remember maybe your memory is a little more cloudy than the budgetary notes showing line item income and expenditures for 1982 and 1983 from the agency...maybe.

I do find it ironic that I give facts, and you give "My memory" but whatever I post is "Fact less assertions" but your memory is "Fact". Nothing new I suppose, those facts can be pesky things and it's easier to ignore them than refute them I suppose.

but if you'd like to check, you'll see that not only did the NSF invest millions to help get SRC going

Again I did check and I did post the numbers. According to the budget as posted all "Revenues were generated by "Membership dues" and the NSF is not a member.

Undoubtedly the DoD and maybe even the NSF contracted with SRC for research but that is a little different than giving "Seed money" to start it.

In fact as posted from the link I gave it was precisely the INACTION of the US government and the fact that the other governments were subsidizing their semiconductor industries that the "Members" decided to form the SRC.

the NSF still joint-funds projects including, but not limited to, $6 million last year for multicore chip designs.

Again no doubt but do you not see the difference between the SRC giving money to the same project as the NSF and the NSF giving money to the SRC? Both the SRC and NSF fund various projects, sometimes jointly. However the SRC is funded by INTEL and other semiconductor companies just as it always has been.

~Matt

Slowman

Nov 7, 09 7:06

Post #43 of 56 (90 views)

Re: Really glad those green jobs are being created. [ajfranke] [In reply to]	Can't Post

"The states that you claim are poised to compete are all shedding population via outmigration."

nevertheless, those are the states that, up to the most current stats, are leading in entrepreneurialism. i don't know that outmigration is a reliable statistic of what state is poised to recover quickly, any more than unemployment is. california typically has more unemployment than other states, and its population is, for whatever reason, less "sticky" than other states. yet, when the stars line up for recovery, california quickly rebounds and leads, or is close to the lead, in start-ups.

"If you think your government there is going to save you, you should rethink it."

and if you think that religion is going to save you, you should rethink it. but... wait! you never said that your religion would save you, did you? and i never said that my government would save me. rather, the difference between you and i is, i understand that i am my government or, rather, my government is me. i don't hate my government. i want it to work for me, usually by allowing people to reach their dreams, as long as it doesn't impinge on the rights of others. letting people of the same sex marry if they want, for example. but that's another topic.

i expect jerry brown to win in california, and i expect him to continue his father's good work on our infrastructure -- a new set of water projects, and a smartgrid system to bring our net green energy exports to the rest of you all ;-)

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

ajfranke

Nov 7, 09 7:22

Post #44 of 56 (85 views)

Re: Really glad those green jobs are being created. [Slowman] [In reply to]	Can't Post

It is really good to hear the optimism in your posts. I am a big fan of optimism. It has a way of being self fulfilling. I am optimistic too, though not in the short run. The American people, like the Iraqi people in 2006, seem to need to periodically stare into the abyss every generation or so before they wake up and realize that they really don't want to go there. CA is leading the way into the abyss, and I do hope they wake up and lead the way out. Personally, my money is on Texas, and, hopefully, Florida. It won't be any of the states trumpeted by your "study." That study was predetermined to argue that the bluer the state the brighter its future. Would that it were true.

I did get a kick out of this statement: I expect jerry brown to win in california, and i expect him to continue his father's good work on our infrastructure -- a new set of water projects, and a smartgrid system to bring our net green energy exports to the rest of you all ;-). I have heard that same kind of comment from you before when you explained that you expected Obama would support and help make happen the construction of new nuclear power plants. I told you were completely wrong about Obama in that regard at the time, and history has proven me right. You are wrong about Jerry Brown in this regard, so much so that I have no idea how you could read that motivation into him.
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This forum is going to be a place of civil discourse, and those who wish to foment hate and discord are no longer welcome here. -- slowman 11/8/04

Art Franke

Slowman

Nov 7, 09 8:00

Post #45 of 56 (82 views)

Re: Really glad those green jobs are being created. [ajfranke] [In reply to]	Can't Post

" It won't be any of the states trumpeted by your "study." That study was predetermined to argue that the bluer the state the brighter its future."

well, again, so say you, i have no idea who or what the kauffmann foundation is, except that it seems to me it's pretty in line with what the chamber of commerce would say.

"You are wrong about Jerry Brown in this regard, so much so that I have no idea how you could read that motivation into him."

i don't think it's a question about motivation. we already have a water problem that needs to be solved, because we're in the third year of a drought that's just going to become a semi-permanent fixture, and we have issues with conservation/ecology: saving the sacramento river delta, etc. our legislature is on the cusp of approving new infrastructure.

the original infrastructure was actually built just prior to pat brown's tenure, he was governor when it was finished, cut the ribbon, but this was a long time coming, and we have the same issues now as then, with the north resisting giving the south "its" water. ironically, it'll probably all get more or less legislatively "solved" and another brown will oversee the ribbon cutting ceremony.

but the smartgrid, this is already in the works, because the antelope valley (proximate to where i live) will be producing thousands of megawatts of solar energy, and the passes (tehachapi, walker) will produce that in wind power. los angeles just bought 60,000 thousand acres of the old onyx ranch last month to construct its wind farm.

these are the largest wind farms in the world, combined with the largest solar farms in the world. that's why green energy is a "natural," pardon the joke, for california and why, because of its entrepreneurial infrastructure (high tech industries, great secondary educational institutions, high internet IQ, cheap and mobile air transportation, access to manufacturing and services, educated workforce), the start-ups will happen here.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

R10C

Nov 7, 09 8:29

Post #46 of 56 (75 views)

Re: Really glad those green jobs are being created. [Slowman] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Or, we will see in "Green Jobs" what we are now watching in health care and the development of DME, Diagnostic Imaging and interface work with patient information. We can install everything we want here, and as pertaining to health care GE Healthcare can call themselves a US based company all they want. The fact of the matter is that most of the new research with durable medical devices and diagnostic imaging, as well as the interfaces to EPM and EMR are coming right out of India.

I currently pay a Transcription company $0.04 a line for STAT's...the are in India - if I was to hire a US based company for the same level of service it would cost $0.29-$0.45 cents a line. Add to that the fact that if we have any issues with an interface they can speak (in their native tongue) to the developers and database admins to get things corrected fast. So...GE sits and claims all kinds of things happening in their US based health divisions...but, everything but everything comes from over seas. With the advent of functional IP phone systems from Cisco and the IP convergence of information there is no longer a need to get folks to come here (to the US and work) on Work Visas at US pay levels....let them stay in India and or China and pay them pennies on the dollar as compared to US wages with benies.

So, even if the installation base of these "green" products is in the US, when all of the research, development and infrastructure design is coming from off shore...we at the end of the day are nothing more than a customer - not a producer.

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f.k.a - Record9, Record9ti Record10, Record10ti, Record10Carbon, but not SuperRecord11 as there are no bar ends.

Slowman

Nov 7, 09 8:37

Post #47 of 56 (71 views)

Re: Really glad those green jobs are being created. [Record10Carbon] [In reply to]	Can't Post

"The fact of the matter is that most of the new research with durable medical devices and diagnostic imaging, as well as the interfaces to EPM and EMR are coming right out of India."

this is just part of the remaking of america. we were an agricultural society 150 years ago. when we became an industrial society, our population underwent a huge displacement, with a migration to the cities, and a move from small family farming to punching a clock on an assembly line.

now, a century later, we're moving from a smokestack economy to an information economy. ironically, this means we no longer have to live in cities.

china is where the smokestack is. but what happens in the factory is not what generates the money. china probably makes, in the aggregate, less than a dollar on every iphone. the owner of the intellectual property, the engineers and industrial designers, the selling agent, the servicing agents, these are the reapers of the profits in an industry.

i don't see why we want to be the makers of commodities, unless we have some unique ability to do so, which, in the case of microelectronics, we don't. of course, this leaves our uneducated out in the cold. which is why we need to focus on education as a national priority.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

R10C

Nov 7, 09 8:48

Post #48 of 56 (69 views)

Re: Really glad those green jobs are being created. [Slowman] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To:

which is why we need to focus on education as a national priority.

But those people (the undereducated) dont want, and dont NEED do work. Social programs have bailed them out for generations and now Obama wants even more. As soon as there are requirements for actions, both personal and for family members in the ranks of the social programs - I say we cut them off. Until they learn that education is power, and an education is required to have a comfortable life....they have no need to try and do better, what they have now (for nothing) is good enough.

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f.k.a - Record9, Record9ti Record10, Record10ti, Record10Carbon, but not SuperRecord11 as there are no bar ends.

Slowman

Nov 7, 09 10:50

Post #49 of 56 (63 views)

Re: Really glad those green jobs are being created. [Record10Carbon] [In reply to]	Can't Post

"But those people (the undereducated) dont want, and dont NEED do work."

i don't think there's any basis in fact for your statement. right now, as the unemployment is the highest its been since the great depression (or perhaps the previous post-depression peak of 1982), we have 82.5% of the population positively at work, 10% recently unemployed or unemployable, and 7.5% in that nether region (temporarily or permanently given up, making money on a cash basis, etc.). in a typical work environment, that 82.5% goes up to about 90%, or higher.

meanwhile, the high school graduation rate of the U.S. workforce is about 7 out of 10, and the percentage of our workforce that has earned at least a bachelors degree is something in the order of 3 out of 10. the median income of the american worker is about $36,000 a year, and, of course, bill gates excepted, it's the college degree holders who're earning an average that's above that number, and those without a degree who average below that number.

if the undereducated were just skating along on their parents hand-outs, or on the government dole, then we wouldn't have between 85 and 95 able-bodied, able-minded, mostly undereducated, americans at work.

"Social programs have bailed them out for generations and now Obama wants even more."

this is just a fabrication, chip. just like people who don't want the government messing with their medicare, or the $40,000 a year earners who don't want obama raising their taxes, you've convinced yourself that the urban myths running around in your brain are true. if you want to fault obama for something he actually did, like time traveling in his own wayback machine maintained at area 51 for the purpose of forging his own birth certificate, fine. otherwise...

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

R10C

Nov 7, 09 11:08

Post #50 of 56 (64 views)

Re: Really glad those green jobs are being created. [Slowman] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Dont forget Dan, I see it day after day. One of the hospitals I work at has over 60% MedicAID patients (a far cry from MediCARE). These people are multi-generational social system recipients who are now members of one of the most pathetic school systems in the nation (Rockford Public 205). We have one of the highest rates of high school illiteracy and a new school board leader who for some reason thinks that free lunches and no out of school suspensions and never ever failing a student will help. When you never see 'the other side' it is easy to think that it is not as bad as it is - the fact is that many folks dont, wont and have no reason to try to better their, or the life of their children. As I have said before, many of these kids dont know they are poor because that is all that they know. Until we as a nation learn that we have to EARN our lifestyle - as minimal as that may be we will get no where. Unfortunately the only way that any change will happen is to let some folks go hungry, let some folks feel the misery that life can hand out...and then decide (much like a drug addict) that it is time that they, of their own accord change their lives for the better.

Note: proof about the schools - Rockford ranks #782 out of 790 districts in the state - and the rankings do NOT count any deviations for population variations. This is the number for one of the seven high schools in our fine city....and this is the school with the AP and Arts Academy

Auburn High
Total Students (2007 - 2008): 1922
Fulltime teachers: 62.0
Student/Teacher Ratio: 31.0
Eligible for discounted/free lunch: 1372 ( 71 %)

Guilford High
Total Students (2007 - 2008): 1997
Fulltime teachers: 94.0
Student/Teacher Ratio: 21.2
Eligible for discounted/free lunch: 1004 ( 50 %)

Oddly - when we look at the PRIVATE school here in town, they first off let in any religion (as long as they have the money), they have a graduation rate of 99%+ and the best sports team in the city by far....funny how things change when people have to EARN (as in pay for) their education. And with this education comes jobs.

Boylan Central Catholic High
Total Students (2007 - 2008): 1250
Fulltime teachers: 87.4
Student/Teacher Ratio: 14.3
Eligible for discounted/free lunch: No data

Student Body: Coed
School days per year: 185
Hours per day: 7.0
Library: Yes
Affiliation: Roman Catholic

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f.k.a - Record9, Record9ti Record10, Record10ti, Record10Carbon, but not SuperRecord11 as there are no bar ends.

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