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Photos ot prisoner abuse the MSM won't show you..
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Startmeup
Feb 17, 06 5:27
Post #1 of 12 (483 views)
Photos ot prisoner abuse the MSM won't show you..
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http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/158187.php
Casey
Feb 17, 06 6:28
Post #2 of 12 (456 views)
Re: Photos ot prisoner abuse the MSM won't show you.. [Startmeup]
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America is what we are because we will not stoop to the level of behavior of the terrorists. To dismiss the abuse charges because they are "not as bad as what the terrorists do to us" is embarrassing to those fighting for a noble cause.
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You sir, are my new hero! - Trifan 11/13/2008
Casey, you are a wise man - blueraider_mike 11/13/2008
Casey, This is an astute observation. - Slowbern 11/17/2008
TripleThreat
Feb 17, 06 6:45
Post #3 of 12 (446 views)
Re: Photos ot prisoner abuse the MSM won't show you.. [Casey]
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I agree that the "higher ground" is the ideal that we exude and aspire to achieve ... but I wonder if that's really how it plays out.
I am not necessarily doubting America's intentions or character ... but am wondering if that type of ideal is realistic for wartime and warlike situations. I get the feeling that most situations in wartime are not "black & white" where there is a clearly defined "right" and "wrong".
Example, is it wrong to torture a prisoner is it yields information that saves many lives?
With as many wars and conflicts as we've (USA) been in during the past century, I wonder if it is still appropriate for us to claim the "moral high road" anymore.
Again, I am not saying that we should fold our tents regarding the moral high road, but IMO there are certainly other ways we could "aspire for peace" and "aim for nation building", without the constant fighting. IMO, we are a violent-loving nation that just likes to fight. we are the Wild West. Maybe I am getting off on a ramble here. But, I am not seeing how a prisoner of war or terrorist captive is anything similar to a suspect in our justice system (i.e., innocent until proven guilty).
I guess I have some reservations about how realistic (and effective) it is to not-torture prisoners of war & terrorists when the information they hold could potentially save many lives and bring the conflict to an end sooner ... this is assuming that all peaceful attempts have been made to prevent war in the first place.
I apologize for being "all over the place" in this thread ... I have quite a few thoughts/questions on this particular subject ... but am not quite sure how to relate them together in one congruent message/question.
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-- At 211 degrees water is hot. At 212 degrees water boils. Boiling water produces steam. You can power a locomotive with steam. Will you supply the extra degree that makes all the difference? ---
Casey
Feb 17, 06 6:56
Post #4 of 12 (437 views)
Re: Photos ot prisoner abuse the MSM won't show you.. [TripleThreat]
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I am not necessarily doubting America's intentions or character
Neither am I which is why the photos from the prisons are disturbing and represent only a very small fraction of our armed forces.
Example, is it wrong to torture a prisoner is it yields information that saves many lives?
I think this is the trap that our government is making people fall for justifying behavior because of some perceived (or even real) threat. You can't start wire-tapping American citizens to possibly prevent another attack that may happen. You also can't start torturing with the hope that you may get some information that saves lives because that information is taken under duress and is likely not reliable and most importantly, that's not what we do.
The slippery slope we are now on is that the government (not only this administration but future ones also) can start justifying everything and anything in the name of preventing terror. When will it end?
Why not follow the acceptable methods of treating prisoners and not resort to their tactics. In the long run, we will win if we do, and lose if we let the terrorists dictate our standards of behavior.
__________________________________________________
You sir, are my new hero! - Trifan 11/13/2008
Casey, you are a wise man - blueraider_mike 11/13/2008
Casey, This is an astute observation. - Slowbern 11/17/2008
Sparticus
Feb 17, 06 10:02
Post #5 of 12 (365 views)
Re: Photos ot prisoner abuse the MSM won't show you.. [Casey]
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TripleThreat
Feb 17, 06 10:05
Post #6 of 12 (363 views)
Re: Photos ot prisoner abuse the MSM won't show you.. [Casey]
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u can't start wire-tapping American citizens to possibly prevent another attack that may happen. You also can't start torturing with the hope that you may get some information that saves lives because that information is taken under duress and is likely not reliable and most importantly, that's not what we do.
See, I view those situations as being completely different. An American citizen has rights outlined in our Constitution. I don't view a terrorists as having any rights. They forfeited their rights. It can be discussed whether the soldiers of an enemy army has similar rights.
It just seems strange to me to have civilized rules regarding soldiers in wartime. To quote the song, "what's so civil about war anyway?"
The slippery slope we are now on is that the government (not only this administration but future ones also) can start justifying everything and anything in the name of preventing terror. When will it end?
I'm only talking about captured soldiers, specifically terrorists.
Why not follow the acceptable methods of treating prisoners and not resort to their tactics. In the long run, we will win if we do, and lose if we let the terrorists dictate our standards of behavior.
A couple of reasons come to mind ... [1] our enemy doesn't always follow those rules. It's like a boxer fighting a no-holds barred fighter. One severely hampers itself regarding victory. [2] I can see situations where a "win at all costs" mentality could be much more effective in ending the war quicker (i.e., saving lives all the way around).
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The "where will it stop?" question is the important question. IMO, that needs to be asked all the time, b/c basically all of our laws and policies could be abused in some regard if we do not continually ask this question. One could say that many of freedoms have been trampled on b/c this question was not taken seriously.
You and I tend to have very similar political views (lean toward the libertarian slant), and it is rare when I would suggest anything that trades freedom for security (a one-way trade that should never be made). But, in this case, I mostly talking about wartime & soldiers (i.e., I am being generous by calling them soldiers). I guess my issue is that it seems silly to have "rules of war", as if it were "sport".
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-- At 211 degrees water is hot. At 212 degrees water boils. Boiling water produces steam. You can power a locomotive with steam. Will you supply the extra degree that makes all the difference? ---
(This post was
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by TripleThreat on Feb 17, 06 10:17)
Casey
Feb 17, 06 10:14
Post #7 of 12 (354 views)
Re: Photos ot prisoner abuse the MSM won't show you.. [TripleThreat]
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But, in this case, I mostly talking about wartime & soldiers (i.e., I am being generous by caling them soldiers). I guess my issue is that it seems silly to have "rules of war", as if it were "sport".
Clearly the 9/11 attacks have changed how we deal with these issues and I hope they start addressing them a little better because they are not going to go away. It doesn't help when the government appears to be operating in such a secretive manner and justifying it by "not giving away secrets to our enemies." You can justify almost anything if you need to and this is going to present a problem for every government.
We also have to redraft a Geneva convention document to deal with these issues instead of our government deciding what is right or wrong on a case by case basis and having no accountability to anyone. Right now, we are changing definitions when we don't like the existing one and there is no one to challenge us.
The more we are perceived as being lone guns writing our own rules, the more resistance we are going to face from all over the world, the more we risk making ourselves susceptible to more attacks.
__________________________________________________
You sir, are my new hero! - Trifan 11/13/2008
Casey, you are a wise man - blueraider_mike 11/13/2008
Casey, This is an astute observation. - Slowbern 11/17/2008
TripleThreat
Feb 17, 06 12:54
Post #8 of 12 (284 views)
Re: Photos ot prisoner abuse the MSM won't show you.. [Casey]
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Right now, we are changing definitions when we don't like the existing one and there is no one to challenge us.
The more we are perceived as being lone guns writing our own rules, the more resistance we are going to face from all over the world, the more we risk making ourselves susceptible to more attacks.
IMO, if you look back throughout American history ... it's been like that since the beginning (serioiusly). Nothing gets in the way of what we want or what we want to do. It's so ingrained into our culture and mentality, that it's speculative if it will ever diminish.
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-- At 211 degrees water is hot. At 212 degrees water boils. Boiling water produces steam. You can power a locomotive with steam. Will you supply the extra degree that makes all the difference? ---
ibchillin
Feb 17, 06 14:37
Post #9 of 12 (244 views)
Re: Photos ot prisoner abuse the MSM won't show you.. [TripleThreat]
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Nowhere in American history has it been so easy for an enemy to destroy an entire American city. We were able to be the cocky "Yanks" because we were always isolated from Europe, the Middle East and Asia where the hot zones of trouble emerged. We used to sleep well, and then came 9/11.
It's a new paradigm: we need allies now because we are alot closer to the world and our enemies than we think. If McDonalds can put salads on their menu, we can make allies (and not be such unilateral dolts) with Middle Eastern countries - allies that will help and let us hunt al Queda. Otherwise, we're on our own.
TripleThreat
Feb 17, 06 18:17
Post #10 of 12 (195 views)
Re: Photos ot prisoner abuse the MSM won't show you.. [ibchillin]
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Otherwise, we're on our own.
Throughout history, have we preferred to make our own decisions or ask for permission to make a move? What would we do if we wanted to do something, but our allies wanted to wait or not make a move at all? (sound familiar?)
Smart or not, I don't think we want allies. We want "yes men".
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-- At 211 degrees water is hot. At 212 degrees water boils. Boiling water produces steam. You can power a locomotive with steam. Will you supply the extra degree that makes all the difference? ---
ibchillin
Feb 18, 06 7:20
Post #11 of 12 (132 views)
Re: Photos ot prisoner abuse the MSM won't show you.. [TripleThreat]
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We want "yes men".
Good luck finding any. During and after WWI and WW2, we had yes men all around the world. Not even halfway thru the current Iraq war, we lost our yes men. Why?
We don't hold the cards anymore
After 9/11, the world saw that we are vulnerable
We are in debt as a nation
Our leader is perceived as dumb southerner
Iraq looks and smells like Bush's folly, and nobody likes to be fooled.
Terrorists are making other countries dance (Spain) and we haven't caught Bin Laden yet.
Sure it's good to just make decisions, but you have to make
good intellegent decisions
. Until our leader can do so, the world won't trust us. We lost alot of trusted friends thanks to Iraq.
TripleThreat
Feb 18, 06 11:18
Post #12 of 12 (116 views)
Re: Photos ot prisoner abuse the MSM won't show you.. [ibchillin]
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I get the feeling that we (USA) is becoming, for the world, the elephant in the room. The thing that is obviously there, but no one wants to deal with. No one wants to be the opposing voice, but no one is rushing to be by our side either, and no one is speaking openly about how to deal with the elephant (pun unintentional). We're like that big muscle kid that gets into fights. No one wants to fight us, but no one wants to get involved in a lot of fights either, by being our buddy.
I would, at some point, like to us put down the gun & shot glass, and get together with other nations and find peaceful, alternative ways (trade agreements, exchange of technology, and ideas) of liberating countries (if that needs to occur), but really get around to building a "worldwide community" where we work together to fight worldwide poverty and hunger. In short, I would like to see the UN become much stronger than the USA, where many countries have sufficient imput and influence. IMO, the UN seems like that substitute teacher trying to settle down a racous classroom. They're screaming, turning the lights on/off, threatening to send the kids to the porncipal, and the kids are not listening b/c they know nothing will really happen.
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-- At 211 degrees water is hot. At 212 degrees water boils. Boiling water produces steam. You can power a locomotive with steam. Will you supply the extra degree that makes all the difference? ---
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