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Oh yeah, the "Prize" for which we have paid so dearly (Iraq finally drops her knickers)
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tim-mech
Jun 30, 08 17:20
Post #1 of 34 (717 views)
Oh yeah, the "Prize" for which we have paid so dearly (Iraq finally drops her knickers)
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In case there was ever any doubt, today marks the end of the (latest) War In Iraq. We got what we came for but she didn't give it up without a fight.
Ahhhh, I can taste it now, that sweet sticky wetness that feels soooo good on the dipstick- Iraqi oil in US corporate hands once again.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/...05.html?hpid=topnews
And as a bonus, we rooted out all the WMDs, reconciled two ancient religious foes, and brought democracy and (relative) peace to the grateful nation of Iraq.
C'mon, you know she wanted it.
Tim
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"Show me a guy who works to keep his family together, spends time with his kids, dates his wife, and compromises on his training sessions....I'll show a guy who's family is important to them." -MJuric
"Corrective action is blocked by vested interests, by well-intentioned political and business leaders, and by their electorates, all of whom are perfectly correct in not noticing big changes from year to year. Instead, each year there are just somewhat more people, and somewhat fewer resources, on Earth."-Jared Diamond
spot
Jun 30, 08 18:41
Post #2 of 34 (692 views)
Re: Oh yeah, the "Prize" for which we have paid so dearly (Iraq finally drops her knickers) [tim-mech]
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I don't think you really summarized that article very well, considering that it mentioned both US and British petroleum firms, and that the bids were for helping Iraq develop its oil fields, not putting foreign corporations in control, or Iraqi oil in US hands, as you so inaptly put it.
Iraq does not have the funds, nor the expertise, or the gear, to fully develop their oil fields and get their exports flowing again. They are in dire need of foreign help to get the oil out of the ground for export and the funds that comes with that. I would also note that the claim that the other major oil producing states keep tight control on foreign investment is a bit misleading, since it was US engineers and oil companies that helped them get their start in the first place (especially in Saudi Arabia).
Those darn facts sure get in the way of a good diatribe, don't they?
Spot
Cervelo / Kuota Mafia Member
"Mine goes to 11...."
tim-mech
Jun 30, 08 20:46
Post #3 of 34 (645 views)
Re: Oh yeah, the "Prize" for which we have paid so dearly (Iraq finally drops her knickers) [spot]
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George, you may very well be right.
However, both the US and Britain are in the driver's seat on that "development" assistance AKA the Coalition of Willing. We certainly had other repressive dictatorial regimes we could have liberated but it just so happened Iraq had some heroin, I mean oil, that we are "addicted" to and might get a taste of if we "helped" the Iraqi's find their democratic independence.
And by the way, the Brits developed and were in control of Iraqi oil for most of the last century when the Iraqis were "just" a tribal monarchy of simple farmers, herders, and craftspeople. Then some Iraqis decided they wanted to keep all that profit for themselves (the nerve) and become an independent state and asked the Brits to leave. (hmm, where have I heard that story before?)
I hope you never become as cynical as I because it's hard to have fun when you carry that monkey on your back.
Nothing to see here, move along folks.
Tim
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"Show me a guy who works to keep his family together, spends time with his kids, dates his wife, and compromises on his training sessions....I'll show a guy who's family is important to them." -MJuric
"Corrective action is blocked by vested interests, by well-intentioned political and business leaders, and by their electorates, all of whom are perfectly correct in not noticing big changes from year to year. Instead, each year there are just somewhat more people, and somewhat fewer resources, on Earth."-Jared Diamond
Casey
Jul 1, 08 1:50
Post #4 of 34 (601 views)
Re: Oh yeah, the "Prize" for which we have paid so dearly (Iraq finally drops her knickers) [tim-mech]
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But the war was never about oil, it was about helping the Iraqi citizens.
__________________________________________________
All right, let me announce the winners:
Danno, Casey, and LorenzoP
They were pretty much on target:
broadbill
Jul 1, 08 4:56
Post #5 of 34 (584 views)
Re: Oh yeah, the "Prize" for which we have paid so dearly (Iraq finally drops her knickers) [Casey]
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In Reply To
But the war was never about oil, it was about helping the Iraqi citizens.
No, it was about WMDs....no wait.....it was about the oil....no wait.....it was about democracy and liberating the Iraqi citizens! yeah, thats it, its all about the citizens!
davet
Jul 1, 08 5:01
Post #6 of 34 (582 views)
Re: Oh yeah, the "Prize" for which we have paid so dearly (Iraq finally drops her knickers) [tim-mech]
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Shahristani said 35 companies -- including firms from the United States,
Britain
,
France
,
Russia
,
China
and
India
-- had been selected to bid on long-term contracts to provide services, equipment, training and advice on the country's biggest oil fields, which have suffered from age, technological neglect and mismanagement during years of war and economic sanctions.
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Will you be more or less happy if the bulk of the contracts go to France, Russia, China and India?
fitzie
Jul 1, 08 5:14
Post #7 of 34 (572 views)
Re: Oh yeah, the "Prize" for which we have paid so dearly (Iraq finally drops her knickers) [tim-mech]
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It is a no brainer that we went into Iraq for oil. The neocons, Haliburton and the Oil and Gas Industry see Iraq as a huge success. Time to dust off that "Mission Accomplished" banner and hang that baby up!
"You should be proud of your daughter. I hope she stays safe, she will be surrounded by great people." FJB
I'll keep your daughter in my thoughts and prayers. Hang tough" Vitus979
(This post was
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by fitzie on Jul 1, 08 5:42)
tim-mech
Jul 1, 08 6:35
Post #8 of 34 (540 views)
Re: Oh yeah, the "Prize" for which we have paid so dearly (Iraq finally drops her knickers) [davet]
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France, Russia, China, and India- I will eat my Giro helmet if any of those countries get anything more than a token presence in those oil fields. You have got to be kidding.
I am already so far from "happy" regarding the state of our Middle East invasion that I could give a flying fruck over who gets the oil- this whole debacle was such a desperate grab for dwindling supplies that it reeks of the worst kind of imperialism. I don't think most Americans realize how much our present lives are tied to oil at $30/barrel. We are just now seeing the kind of economic and social illness that comes with a quadrupling of that price.
BushCo. gambled on a quickie and got left holding his insurgency in his left hand.
The Bush administration had two choices eight years ago- man up and tell the population that our addiction to oil was very bad for us economically, environmentally, and socially and we are going to get off it starting now (conservation, CAFE standards, national energy research program like the Manhattan Project, public transportation support and repair, etc.) OR wimp out and go for the short term fix that both settles an old score, makes you and your friends wealthier than god, and protects the status quo.
Now you know. My heart aches for all those mothers, fathers, children and family whose beloved family members were killed over this pathetic energy source.
Tim
#########################################
"Show me a guy who works to keep his family together, spends time with his kids, dates his wife, and compromises on his training sessions....I'll show a guy who's family is important to them." -MJuric
"Corrective action is blocked by vested interests, by well-intentioned political and business leaders, and by their electorates, all of whom are perfectly correct in not noticing big changes from year to year. Instead, each year there are just somewhat more people, and somewhat fewer resources, on Earth."-Jared Diamond
Dapper Dan
Jul 1, 08 8:58
Post #9 of 34 (483 views)
Re: Oh yeah, the "Prize" for which we have paid so dearly (Iraq finally drops her knickers) [tim-mech]
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You forgot to mention the part about lying to public about the reasons for going to war and the evidence available regarding the threat of WMD.
Between this and the continued monetary support of Isreal, it is more and more clear that rather than a nation of the people, by the people, for the people, you can substitute "wealthy special interests" for "people".
Suppose we consider that "oil" is an industrial raw material just like silicon or cotton or coffee. Do you suppose the supply of coffee should be protected by the US military, with soldiers protecting friendly "coffee supplying" countries and special government relationships established? With our warships patrolling the "coffee" corridor. Why shoud the US taxpayers be responsible for the protection of the coffee industry? Just because most of us drink coffee? I would think it would be better for the coffee industry to handle supply issues on its own, and build the cost of such into the price of coffee. Too bad it doesn't work that way for oil.
jkca1
Jul 1, 08 9:52
Post #10 of 34 (467 views)
Re: Oh yeah, the "Prize" for which we have paid so dearly (Iraq finally drops her knickers) [tim-mech]
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As long as we won do we really care about the details? Just give me my trophy and I will be on my way. Thank you for your support.
"No one is remembered for the novel they almost wrote."
tim-mech
Jul 1, 08 14:43
Post #11 of 34 (413 views)
Re: Oh yeah, the "Prize" for which we have paid so dearly (Iraq finally drops her knickers) [jkca1]
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If he is justly rewarded, history will remember that BushCo. helped America grasp just one more straw of an unsustainable existence, at a cost too dear for it's citizenry, and then rode off into the welcoming arms of his billionaire oilmen pals.
What a great story to tell our grandchildren as we gather around our smoldering dung fires and huddle against the cold. (I mean heat; depending on where you are huddling that is.)
Tim
#########################################
"Show me a guy who works to keep his family together, spends time with his kids, dates his wife, and compromises on his training sessions....I'll show a guy who's family is important to them." -MJuric
"Corrective action is blocked by vested interests, by well-intentioned political and business leaders, and by their electorates, all of whom are perfectly correct in not noticing big changes from year to year. Instead, each year there are just somewhat more people, and somewhat fewer resources, on Earth."-Jared Diamond
spot
Jul 1, 08 16:31
Post #12 of 34 (384 views)
Re: Oh yeah, the "Prize" for which we have paid so dearly (Iraq finally drops her knickers) [tim-mech]
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I guess for me to believe this was all about the oil, I would need the answers to the following questions:
1. Why didn't we just take their oil fields? The oil in Iraq is primarily in areas that favored the US, the Shia south and the Kurdish north. There was no reason to take Anbar province unless you really believed that there was WMD located there.
2. Why weren't US oil companies in Iraqi oil fields in 2003? Why on earth did we wait until 2008 to start "exploiting" the Iraqis? The US could have been pumping oil out of Iraq like there was no tomorrow for almost 5 freakin' years.
3. If we were trying to guarantee an oil supply, why do it in the most unstable area on earth, and one where the oil has to come through straits that can easily be blocked by another regime that doesn't like us very much (Iran and the Straits of Hormuz)? It would have been much easier and cheaper to invade Venezuela. Or Mexico, for that matter, considering how much oil we get from those countries (far more from the Persian Gulf, in fact).
4. Why not invade Saudi Arabia, if its just about the oil? Their oil infrastructure is in far better shape than Iraq's, and they have more proven reserves. And Saudi oil is some of the best in the world....light, sweet crude that comes out of the ground practically on its own after a well is sunk.
5. Why not have just struck a deal with Saddam...his regime stays in existence for his oil? Much cheaper and we would have had all the oil we needed without firing a shot.
Its really easy to just say "we did it for the oil", and much harder to logically answer the actual mechanics by which America benefits from Iraqi oil. It also ignores the reality of what was happening in 2002 and an administration determined to continue the war on terror. Seriously, if you or anybody else has some good, logical answers for the above, I'll reconsider my opinion on the war. But it seems far too much like a conspiracy theory to me.
My opinion on why we invaded Iraq is that it wasn't really about the WMD. It may have been a little bit, but I think there were larger issues than that driving the administration to war. I think the administration thought that the existence of WMD was a given and provided a convenient excuse to go to war, and they were really surprised when they didn't find any. I think the war in Iraq was more about creating an Islamic democracy and providing a counterpoint to the type of existence the Al Qaeda represented. This is exactly what the neocons were preaching, and the president had a lot of them in OSD and his administration. It fits a lot better with history than some sort of oil conspiracy, especially in light of the fact that we are 5 years into this war and haven't seen so much as an extra drop of Iraqi oil. I also think the neocons oversold the ease with which we would could create new institutions in Iraq and the liklihood that we would be welcomed as liberators. That mindset created the enviroment for extremely over-optimistic post-war planning, which led to the current situation.
Spot
Cervelo / Kuota Mafia Member
"Mine goes to 11...."
tim-mech
Jul 1, 08 17:34
Post #13 of 34 (371 views)
Re: Oh yeah, the "Prize" for which we have paid so dearly (Iraq finally drops her knickers) [spot]
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As venal as the current adminstration is they couldn't come right out and tell the American public-
"Folks, competition for ever more scarce oil is driving up the price and with that higher price comes a decline in our standards of living. We need to go and take someone else's oil or you all are going to have to trade in your pick-up trucks and SUVs for tiny little subcompact cars, take fewer vacations and stay closer to home, pay more for food and imported goods, and a whole bunch of other things that will make us HAVE TO LIVE LIKE EUROPEANS."
That wouldn't fly in Dubuque any more than it did in Berkeley.
But of the first four you list, any of those are distinct possibilities in the not too distant future for the right kind of administration. Number five on your list didn't work because Saddam wasn't an evil genius. He was just evil, and arrogant, and stupid.
So, what if Hugo Chavez follows through with his repeated threats to cut off oil sales to North America? You think times are hard now? That's when we might "have to" go in a "seize" Venezuelan oil. Because an embargo like that is like Chavez declaring war on the U.S. Would you agree?
The actual mechanics are that simple: anyone of our top five foreign suppliers of oil stops the flow, we are screwed. I think you'll agree with that right. So what do we do then? Do we allow that country to hold our economy, our very well being, hostage? I, personally, don't think I could shoot anyone for refusing to sell me oil. I'm not so sure about the rest of my fellow countrymen however.
Tim
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"Show me a guy who works to keep his family together, spends time with his kids, dates his wife, and compromises on his training sessions....I'll show a guy who's family is important to them." -MJuric
"Corrective action is blocked by vested interests, by well-intentioned political and business leaders, and by their electorates, all of whom are perfectly correct in not noticing big changes from year to year. Instead, each year there are just somewhat more people, and somewhat fewer resources, on Earth."-Jared Diamond
spot
Jul 1, 08 17:54
Post #14 of 34 (363 views)
Re: Oh yeah, the "Prize" for which we have paid so dearly (Iraq finally drops her knickers) [tim-mech]
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You didn't answer the most obvious question...if the war was all about oil, why didn't the oil companies move in in 2003? Or even 2004? Why did it take 5 years? Also, if you go back and click on your link, you'll notice the story has changed...it is no longer about American and British oil companies being allowed to exploit Iraqi oil, its more about 35 companies from around the world being allowed to bid.
The notion that America would just take the oil fields was actually a strategy bandied about during the Clinton years by the neocons as a way to get rid of Saddam, so not nearly as venal as you might imagine.
Spot
Cervelo / Kuota Mafia Member
"Mine goes to 11...."
cerveloguy
Jul 1, 08 18:48
Post #15 of 34 (356 views)
Re: Oh yeah, the "Prize" for which we have paid so dearly (Iraq finally drops her knickers) [spot]
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"Iraq does not have the funds, nor the expertise, or the gear, to fully develop their oil fields and get their exports flowing again"
Hmmmm....now why do you think that might be? Could two US lead wars have something to do with that?
"OK, I'll admit I screwed up the facts"
english muffin
Jul 1, 08 21:27
Post #16 of 34 (341 views)
Re: Oh yeah, the "Prize" for which we have paid so dearly (Iraq finally drops her knickers) [spot]
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you are very wrong in all aspects
******************************
I'm 5000ft up from where I started the run and I stop to walk. A fat guy passes me, all I can think is "This ain't glyn gets passed by a fat guy day" and start running
Casey
Jul 2, 08 4:34
Post #17 of 34 (316 views)
Re: Oh yeah, the "Prize" for which we have paid so dearly (Iraq finally drops her knickers) [spot]
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1. Why didn't we just take their oil fields?
The same reason we didn't simply assassinate Hussein, those things are frowned upon. If we sounded the war drums and provided another plausible reason to invade (WMD), the thought was we would fool a lot of people.
2. Why weren't US oil companies in Iraqi oil fields in 2003?
The security problems.
4. Why not invade Saudi Arabia, if its just about the oil?
They are friends with Bush.
5. Why not have just struck a deal with Saddam...his regime stays in existence for his oil?
Exactly my question but you will have to ask Bush. Remember, he is the one who said you don't strike deals with people who try to kill your father, I mean, with terrorists.
__________________________________________________
All right, let me announce the winners:
Danno, Casey, and LorenzoP
They were pretty much on target:
spot
Jul 2, 08 4:48
Post #18 of 34 (312 views)
Re: Oh yeah, the "Prize" for which we have paid so dearly (Iraq finally drops her knickers) [english muffin]
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Well argued, right up there with the "are too, are not" category.
Care to back up this up with any sort of facts-based logic and get beyond the playground level of discourse?
Spot
Cervelo / Kuota Mafia Member
"Mine goes to 11...."
spot
Jul 2, 08 4:50
Post #19 of 34 (311 views)
Re: Oh yeah, the "Prize" for which we have paid so dearly (Iraq finally drops her knickers) [cerveloguy]
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Nope. It was more like years of sanctions and Saddam's using of most revenues to build himself palaces and buy arms instead of upgrading his oil infrastructure.
Spot
Cervelo / Kuota Mafia Member
"Mine goes to 11...."
spot
Jul 2, 08 4:51
Post #20 of 34 (310 views)
Re: Oh yeah, the "Prize" for which we have paid so dearly (Iraq finally drops her knickers) [Casey]
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There were plenty of troops to protect the oil fields in 2003 if that's what we were there for.
Spot
Cervelo / Kuota Mafia Member
"Mine goes to 11...."
Casey
Jul 2, 08 5:00
Post #21 of 34 (305 views)
Re: Oh yeah, the "Prize" for which we have paid so dearly (Iraq finally drops her knickers) [spot]
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There were plenty of troops to protect the oil fields in 2003 if that's what we were there for.
Huh?
We didn't have enough troops to stop the daily carnage and yet there were enough to protect the convoys of trucks, oil pipelines and ensure the safety of thousands of workers?
__________________________________________________
All right, let me announce the winners:
Danno, Casey, and LorenzoP
They were pretty much on target:
spot
Jul 2, 08 5:07
Post #22 of 34 (303 views)
Re: Oh yeah, the "Prize" for which we have paid so dearly (Iraq finally drops her knickers) [Casey]
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I should have been clearer. There were plenty of troops to protect the oil fields if we were willing to let the rest of the country go to hell in the handbasket. There weren't enough troops to do both.
Which leads me to a pondering....again, if we were there solely for the oil, and it was so freaking important, then why weren't there 300,000 troops on the ground protecting the oil fields and the cities? It seems to me that folks want to argue oil, oil, oil, yet the mere fact that for five years we haven't done dick to make the oil start flowing faster doesn't really support their argument very well.
Spot
Cervelo / Kuota Mafia Member
"Mine goes to 11...."
Casey
Jul 2, 08 5:20
Post #23 of 34 (301 views)
Re: Oh yeah, the "Prize" for which we have paid so dearly (Iraq finally drops her knickers) [spot]
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if we were there solely for the oil, and it was so freaking important, then why weren't there 300,000 troops on the ground protecting the oil fields and the cities? It seems to me that folks want to argue oil, oil, oil, yet the mere fact that for five years we haven't done dick to make the oil start flowing faster
It always comes back to the complete incompetence of this administration. It was Rumsfeld's decision not to put more troops on the ground because they did not anticipate resistance, we were to be welcomed with open arms. It was only after we were there that the trouble started and the administration had to scramble to protect our soldiers.
__________________________________________________
All right, let me announce the winners:
Danno, Casey, and LorenzoP
They were pretty much on target:
LorenzoP
Jul 2, 08 6:19
Post #24 of 34 (285 views)
Re: Oh yeah, the "Prize" for which we have paid so dearly (Iraq finally drops her knickers) [Casey]
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... that's one theory, the other theory is that the chaos we see was exactly the goal. That way we can keep boots on the ground indefinitely. The 'incompetence' was planned.
fitzie
Jul 2, 08 6:20
Post #25 of 34 (285 views)
Re: Oh yeah, the "Prize" for which we have paid so dearly (Iraq finally drops her knickers) [spot]
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"4. Why not invade Saudi Arabia, if its just about the oil? Their oil infrastructure is in far better shape than Iraq's, and they have more proven reserves. And Saudi oil is some of the best in the world....light, sweet crude that comes out of the ground practically on its own after a well is sunk."
The Saudi's basically control OPEC and the Bush Family goes waaaaay back with the Saudis.
"You should be proud of your daughter. I hope she stays safe, she will be surrounded by great people." FJB
I'll keep your daughter in my thoughts and prayers. Hang tough" Vitus979
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