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Slowtwitch Forums: Lavender Room:
Obama Rewrites Iraq Plan

 
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Al P Duez

Jul 3, 08 17:16

Post #26 of 60 (766 views)
Re: Obama Rewrites Iraq Plan [Slowman] [In reply to] Can't Post
What it means is what he said "Obama will immediately begin to remove our troops from Iraq. He will remove one to two combat brigades each month and have all of our combat brigades out of Iraq within 16 months; Obama website.” Immediate is his words and as much as you want to attribute it to some vast right wing machine the more you look like a partisan lemming. You are so smitten with this guy you have lost all sense of proportion

The point is he has changed as now he is not "wedded" to a timeline.


(This post was edited by Al P Duez on Jul 3, 08 17:25)


Slowman

Jul 3, 08 17:40

Post #27 of 60 (756 views)
Re: Obama Rewrites Iraq Plan [Al P Duez] [In reply to] Can't Post
i think you need to consider what 'immediately begin' means.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman


Al P Duez

Jul 3, 08 17:47

Post #28 of 60 (752 views)
Re: Obama Rewrites Iraq Plan [Slowman] [In reply to] Can't Post
Immediately begin and not wedded to a timeline. Change I can believe in. Thank god he is not locked in as he portrayed himself during the primary season. Now all he has to do is become fiscally responsible by doing away with his $400 billion spending plan and onerous tax policy and he will get my vote, maybe.


spot

Jul 3, 08 17:56

Post #29 of 60 (748 views)
Re: Obama Rewrites Iraq Plan [Slowman] [In reply to] Can't Post
You must have a dictionary that defines "immediately" differently from mine. What does that word mean to you?

Spot
Cervelo / Kuota Mafia Member
"Mine goes to 11...."


Slowman

Jul 3, 08 17:59

Post #30 of 60 (748 views)
Re: Obama Rewrites Iraq Plan [Al P Duez] [In reply to] Can't Post
" Immediately begin and not wedded to a timeline."

immediately begin means he's going to start taking out american soldiers right from the get go. as to the pace, and the eventual end, you have to ask yourself what "careful getting out" means. maybe it just means nothing to you, maybe you've been like the rest of the hard right wingers and just stuck your fingers in your ears and refused to hear that phrase. i don't know.

when mccain asked, "why not 100 years?" and then when he said he envisioned americans largely out by 2013, i did not see that as a flip flop. i saw those two statements as each consistent with mccain's posture, even though there was, to some left-wingers, a 95 year swing. perhaps that's because i carefully listened to what he said, and not for the purpose of catching him in a gaffe.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman


spot

Jul 3, 08 18:07

Post #31 of 60 (744 views)
Re: Obama Rewrites Iraq Plan [Slowman] [In reply to] Can't Post
Dan...

You steadfastly refuse to acknowledge that Obama's own website very clearly states:

"Obama will immediately begin to remove our troops from Iraq. He will remove one to two combat brigades each month, and have all of our combat brigades out of Iraq within 16 months."

"Within 16 months" can only mean within 16 months of taking office. His website has said this for months...I know, because I've checked on his Iraq policy ever since he became a candidate. Obama can say what he likes, but the fact remains, he has repeatedly said he will pull all troops from Iraq, and his own freakin' website gives the timetable for when all combat troops will be home. So maybe "immediately" and "16 months" means nothing to you hard left wingers, but it means something to me. Call me crazy, but it would seem to me that when somebody puts down in writing what they intend on doing, then maybe that's what they actually mean, instead of trying to parse their words to come up with a meaning that you desire.

Spot
Cervelo / Kuota Mafia Member
"Mine goes to 11...."


Slowman

Jul 3, 08 18:12

Post #32 of 60 (739 views)
Re: Obama Rewrites Iraq Plan [spot] [In reply to] Can't Post
"You must have a dictionary that defines "immediately" differently from mine. What does that word mean to you?"

you're right. obama wants to "immediately" take all the troops out of iraq. they'll all be home in 48 hours. thanks for clearing that up for me.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman


spot

Jul 3, 08 18:17

Post #33 of 60 (737 views)
Re: Obama Rewrites Iraq Plan [Slowman] [In reply to] Can't Post
No, it will start immediately and will be complete within 16 months. Why don't you read what his website says?

Spot
Cervelo / Kuota Mafia Member
"Mine goes to 11...."


Slowman

Jul 3, 08 18:42

Post #34 of 60 (732 views)
Re: Obama Rewrites Iraq Plan [spot] [In reply to] Can't Post
"No, it will start immediately and will be complete within 16 months."

well, i just reminded you that the phrase used was "immediately begin," and you kept insisting on leaving out the word "begin" and so i just thought i'd let you have your way.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman


ajfranke

Jul 3, 08 18:53

Post #35 of 60 (729 views)
Re: Obama Rewrites Iraq Plan [spot] [In reply to] Can't Post
You are just a hater. No reason to bother with your posts any more.

Please don't ask me for quotes to back that drive by personal attack. I don't want to read through your hate speech.

Why right wingers like you would attack Obama for these flip flops is beyond me. Every single one of them is a change for the better. You might even say a change we can believe in.
____
This forum is going to be a place of civil discourse, and those who wish to foment hate and discord are no longer welcome here. -- slowman 11/8/04

Art Franke


Slowman

Jul 3, 08 19:16

Post #36 of 60 (719 views)
Re: Obama Rewrites Iraq Plan [ajfranke] [In reply to] Can't Post
nice of you to join the thread. and, nice example of you staying true to form.

did you have a thought accretive to the general commonweal this week? if so, did you share it? where might i find that?

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman


ajfranke

Jul 3, 08 19:26

Post #37 of 60 (714 views)
Re: Obama Rewrites Iraq Plan [Slowman] [In reply to] Can't Post
If you just check above you will see that I predicted all of this exactly.

Obama is not going to box himself into losing a war which is clearly on the verge of being won. The guy has a brain. The guy is an adult. I couldn't be more pleased to see him display that, especially with his signing onto the Bush FISA proposals and now being on his way to signing onto the Bush Iraq strategy.

Dan, you really need to consider having more respect for those that make predictions which are proven correct as more information is gathered and less respect for those whose predictions are proven inaccurate as time goes on.

I was hoping Hillary would win the nomination because I knew she was tough and an adult who would move in these directions regardless of her campaign statements. Like her husband, she wasn't one to let the past get in the way of her future. I thought Obama actually believed the crap he was putting out in the quest for the nomination and it scared me. On that I was wrong, and I couldn't be more pleased.

Guys like you and MattinSF are going to support him anyway and probably even deny any of this is a flip flop, so he really doesn't have to worry about you. It is really fun to watch those rationalizations. You aren't going anywhere.
____
This forum is going to be a place of civil discourse, and those who wish to foment hate and discord are no longer welcome here. -- slowman 11/8/04

Art Franke


Slowman

Jul 3, 08 19:34

Post #38 of 60 (713 views)
Re: Obama Rewrites Iraq Plan [ajfranke] [In reply to] Can't Post
on FISA, i was disappointed with barack. he was politically shrewd. of those who've actually run for high office, he's the best political brain of his generation, on a par with bill clinton. unfortunately, he ought to have made a stand. he did not.

what i will not do is bring up where mccain has done the same thing, because what mccain does or doesn't do is immaterial to barack's behavior.

on what barack said about the war, i don't see his comments as a move from his position, because he never tied himself down to an inflexible timetable, notwithstanding him giving his best estimate. he always send he trended toward getting out, and he will. mccain (who also gave his best estimate) always said that he trends toward staying, and he will. both have said they'll behave in a careful considered manner. both will.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman


JSA

Jul 3, 08 19:35

Post #39 of 60 (712 views)
Re: Obama Rewrites Iraq Plan [Slowman] [In reply to] Can't Post
he said nothing that he has not consistently said, repeatedly said, boringly said, over, and over, and over again, for the better part of a year,

Dan: He had to call the reporters back for a second news conference. Obviously, even he realized he did not say the same thing he has said for the better part of a year. From the attached article:

"Obama was forced to call reporters back for a second news conference in Fargo, North Dakota, after he initially left open the possibility of revising his 16-month timetable for pulling U.S. combat forces from Iraq."

In addition, he demonstrated he does not have a clue about what is going on over there. He has never been there and never spoken to any commanders over there. This whole episode should remind the American public of his complete lack of experience.

http://news.yahoo.com/...itics_obama_iraq1_dc


_______________________________________________

"My better is better than your better." - LT, via Nike

The people who keep me moving:

TRANSITION - Get Moving!



last tri in 83

Jul 3, 08 19:42

Post #40 of 60 (707 views)
Re: Obama Rewrites Iraq Plan [Slowman] [In reply to] Can't Post
he's the best political brain of his generation.

Dan, I'm curious as to why you would say that, can you expand? (just curious, not trying to set you up for a gotcha)

_____________________________________________
Conservative in exile.


ajfranke

Jul 3, 08 19:53

Post #41 of 60 (705 views)
Re: Obama Rewrites Iraq Plan [Slowman] [In reply to] Can't Post
"i don't see his comments as a move from his position, because he never tied himself down to an inflexible timetable, notwithstanding him giving his best estimate."

You are operating according to the Obama model of you as I described above:

Guys like you and MattinSF are going to support him anyway and probably even deny any of this is a flip flop

Speaking of predictions, I told you two years ago we would have vote after vote in the Democratic Congress to try to force a loss in the war on Bush's watch, but that there would be no such votes to force a loss on the next president's watch should it be a Democrat. Obama voted for every effort to defund the war, to oppose the surge that has succeeded beyond anyone's expectations, and to force a withdrawal according to fixed time tables. How you can spin this into never tying himself down to and inflexible timetable is difficult to understand, but fun to watch. Knock yourself out.

I agree with essentially nothing Kos writes, but I at least have to repect him for holding fast to his principals and attacking Obama for the FISA and Iraq flip flops. You are not burdened with that consistency. You are now getting ready to vote for the guy who supports the very policies you were apoplectic about when advanced by Bush. You had post after post about Bush's shredding the Constitution and hoping the US would do a third world immitation and put the losing party leaders in jail. When Obama advocates those same actions, you mention you are disappointed as an aside.

There is no difference among Bush, McCain and Obama on the whole FISA surveilance issue, and there will likely be no difference between Obama and McCain on Iraq come November. This is all good news to me. It is all so predictable and predicted.
____
This forum is going to be a place of civil discourse, and those who wish to foment hate and discord are no longer welcome here. -- slowman 11/8/04

Art Franke


Slowman

Jul 3, 08 20:00

Post #42 of 60 (700 views)
Re: Obama Rewrites Iraq Plan [ajfranke] [In reply to] Can't Post
"This is all good news to me. It is all so predictable and predicted."

well, you must be creaming your jeans. see you tomorrow.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman


Mike Lamb

Jul 3, 08 20:28

Post #43 of 60 (693 views)
Re: Obama Rewrites Iraq Plan [ajfranke] [In reply to] Can't Post
    It's easy to "predict" something that he hasn't changed on...from 11/1/07:

“According to all the reports, we should have been well along our way in getting the Iraqi security forces to be more functional. We then have another 16 months after that to adjust the withdrawal and make sure that we are withdrawing from those areas, based on advice from the military officers in the field, those places where we are secured, made progress and we’re not just willy-nilly removing troops, but we’re making a determination – in this region we see some stability. We’ve had cooperation from local tribal leaders and local officials, so we can afford to remove troops here. Here, we’ve still got problems, it’s going to take a little bit longer. Maybe those are the last areas to pull out.”



f/k/a mclamb6


dave_w

Jul 3, 08 20:47

Post #44 of 60 (688 views)
Re: Obama Rewrites Iraq Plan [ajfranke] [In reply to] Can't Post
In Reply To

I agree with essentially nothing Kos writes, but I at least have to repect him for holding fast to his principals and attacking Obama for the FISA and Iraq flip flops.
 
Well Kos is disgusted with the flip from Obama, but does not fault BHO at all, rather the republicans that would have made hay with his vote otherwise. Doesn't reflect well on Obama or Kos.

"It's all about self-esteem"


spot

Jul 4, 08 3:54

Post #45 of 60 (663 views)
Re: Obama Rewrites Iraq Plan [Slowman] [In reply to] Can't Post
Are you being purposely obtuse on this? What does leaving out the word "begin" have to do with anything? From the dictionary:

be·gin Audio Help /bɪˈgɪn/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[bi-gin] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation verb, be·gan, be·gun, be·gin·ning. –verb (used without object) 1. to proceed to perform the first or earliest part of some action; commence; start: It means the same thing as what I said earlier, "to start". Do you really believe that what Obama meant during the primaries and what he has on his website means that he does not intend to draw down all of the combat troops within 16 months of his taking office? Besides that paragraph, there are other parts of his website where he talks about timelines, so its not like this is new:
  • In 2005, he called for a phased withdrawal of our troops;
  • In 2006, he called for a timetable to remove our troops, a political solution within Iraq, and aggressive diplomacy with all of Iraq’s neighbors;
  • In January 2007, he introduced legislation in the Senate to remove all of our combat troops from Iraq by March 2008.



    • Spot
    Cervelo / Kuota Mafia Member
    "Mine goes to 11...."


    Casey

    Jul 4, 08 4:40

    Post #46 of 60 (657 views)
    Re: Obama Rewrites Iraq Plan [Al P Duez] [In reply to] Can't Post
    Barry backed off his firm promise to withdraw combat forces from Iraq immediately and instead said he could “refine” his plan after his trip to Baghdad later this month.

    I think Obama is making a mistake by not sticking to his guns on Iraq but my understanding from watching his speeches was that he was going to withdraw within 16 months, not immediately, so I really don't see a lot different.

    I do find it amusing that when McCain changed from opposing the Bush tax cuts to supporting them, he is hailed as a flexible man who accomodates the currently reality of the economic situation. In fact, here in the LR he was labelled a visionary.

    Obama said he may be open to change after speaking with the Generals on the ground, and he is attacked as a flip flopper.

    It's another example of politics being so one-sided, both sides don't see that they are both doing exactly the same thing.
    __________________________________________________

    You sir, are my new hero! - Trifan 11/13/2008

    Casey, you are a wise man - blueraider_mike 11/13/2008

    Casey, This is an astute observation. - Slowbern 11/17/2008


    ajfranke

    Jul 4, 08 4:53

    Post #47 of 60 (654 views)
    Re: Obama Rewrites Iraq Plan [Casey] [In reply to] Can't Post
    he is attacked as a flip flopper.

    Who is attacking? Those who oppose the guy, like me, are quite pleased.

    For rational people, when the facts fundamentally change, they revisit and possibly revise their opinions. You don't burden yourself with that effort, Casey. Apparently Obama does.

    Obama has shifted like the wind on Iraq. When he was running for the State Senate from a black district in 2002, he opposed the proposed war. When he was running state wide in 2004 and the war was still popular, he commented that there was very little distance between his position on Iraq and that of Bush. When the war was going badly, he repeatedly supported and voted for forced withdrawals. Now that the war is going well, he no longer supports tying the hands of the president, who might be him.

    It has been over a week since our last fatality in Iraq. Civilian deaths were at an all time low last month. Not reevaluating one's position in the face of circumstances vastly different than anticipated is for those completely detached from reality. Obama is apparently not in that camp. How about you?

    ____
    This forum is going to be a place of civil discourse, and those who wish to foment hate and discord are no longer welcome here. -- slowman 11/8/04

    Art Franke


    Casey

    Jul 4, 08 5:03

    Post #48 of 60 (651 views)
    Re: Obama Rewrites Iraq Plan [ajfranke] [In reply to] Can't Post
    Actually,there were 101 U.S soldiers/marines killed in June so I wouldn't bet too much on one week. You made that mistake a few years ago when you called Afghanistan an overwhelming victory, kind of like Mission Accomplished. Be careful in declaring victory too soon.

    Also, the Iraqi civilian death toll was 1,227, the lowest level since February, not since the war started. I still find those figures staggering considering but, that's just me.

    http://www.reuters.com/...Crisis/idUSL01546367
    __________________________________________________

    You sir, are my new hero! - Trifan 11/13/2008

    Casey, you are a wise man - blueraider_mike 11/13/2008

    Casey, This is an astute observation. - Slowbern 11/17/2008


    ajfranke

    Jul 4, 08 5:20

    Post #49 of 60 (645 views)
    Re: Obama Rewrites Iraq Plan [Casey] [In reply to] Can't Post
    This is just too damn funny, Casey. In response to a post in which I tell you that you are completely detached from the current reality, you cite an article written one year ago, having mistaken it for a current article.

    I guess pointing this out to you just makes me a hater though.
    ____
    This forum is going to be a place of civil discourse, and those who wish to foment hate and discord are no longer welcome here. -- slowman 11/8/04

    Art Franke


    dave_w

    Jul 4, 08 5:33

    Post #50 of 60 (641 views)
    Re: Obama Rewrites Iraq Plan [Casey] [In reply to] Can't Post
    		In Reply To

    I think Obama is making a mistake by not sticking to his guns on Iraq...
     

    But Slowman has spent the entire thread arguing that Obama has not changed one whit. Slowman's current assessment "on what barack said about the war, i don't see his comments as a move from his position, because he never tied himself down to an inflexible timetable, notwithstanding him giving his best estimate. he always send he trended toward getting out, and he will. mccain (who also gave his best estimate) always said that he trends toward staying, and he will. both have said they'll behave in a careful considered manner. both will. " may be accurate, but I read enough from the left/hard left to know that it is not how his words were received. Interestingly, nothing on Kos yesterday about Obama's Iraq words.

    You're right that much is being made of this, but candidates set themselves up for some extra abuse on certain issues, simply because they make them marquee issues.

    "It's all about self-esteem"

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