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Knoxville Church shooter was one confused dude
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MattinSF
Jul 28, 08 15:10
Post #1 of 60 (503 views)
Knoxville Church shooter was one confused dude
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Turns out he was mad that his food stamps and a couple of other federal aid programs he was on were cut so he decides to shoot up a church full of liberals because it was all their fault.
If only he'd found the lavender room to vent his bile instead. One more nutcase wouldn't make much of a difference.
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HOPE is a plan that worked. CHANGE is a plan that worked. BELIEVE is a plan that worked.
last tri in 83
Jul 28, 08 15:28
Post #2 of 60 (483 views)
Re: Knoxville Church shooter was one confused dude [MattinSF]
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Was there a sign out front that said Church of the Latter Day Liberals or did they have Obama stickers on their cars?
_____________________________________________
Conservative in exile.
dave_w
Jul 28, 08 15:31
Post #3 of 60 (480 views)
Re: Knoxville Church shooter was one confused dude [MattinSF]
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http://www.knoxnews.com/...ones-friend-hated-c/
According to neighbors he had issues with Christianity.
"It's all about self-esteem"
David in FL
Jul 28, 08 15:34
Post #4 of 60 (476 views)
Re: Knoxville Church shooter was one confused dude [MattinSF]
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If only he'd found the lavender room to vent his bile instead. One more nutcase wouldn't make much of a difference
Plus, he probably could have made a couple of bucks selling his shotgun to YaHey to go along with all his other guns!
"Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in a grey twilight that knows not victory nor defeat."
Theodore Roosevelt
YaHey
Jul 28, 08 15:38
Post #5 of 60 (473 views)
Re: Knoxville Church shooter was one confused dude [MattinSF]
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At least he knew where to use his God given Right to gun ownership.
Maybe he was defending himself?
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MattinSF
Jul 28, 08 15:46
Post #6 of 60 (465 views)
Re: Knoxville Church shooter was one confused dude [last tri in 83]
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Was there a sign out front that said Church of the Latter Day Liberals or did they have Obama stickers on their cars?
it was a Unitarian Universalist Church...which might as well be called the Church of Latter day Liberals and you can bet there were a few Obama stickers in the lot.
KNOXVILLE, Tennessee (CNN)
-- A man suspected of fatally shooting two adults at a Knoxville church Sunday was motivated by frustration over being unable to obtain a job and hatred for liberal stances, police said Monday.
Jim Adkisson, 58, was charged with first-degree murder after Sunday's shooting at the Knoxville church.
A four-page letter found in the vehicle of Jim Adkisson -- who also is accused of injuring seven other adults -- indicated he may have targeted the Tennessee Valley Unitarian Universalist Church because of recent publicity about the church's liberal policies.
"He did express that frustration, that the liberal movement was getting more jobs," Knoxville Police Chief Sterling Owen IV told reporters
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HOPE is a plan that worked. CHANGE is a plan that worked. BELIEVE is a plan that worked.
trio_jeepy
Jul 28, 08 15:54
Post #7 of 60 (458 views)
Re: Knoxville Church shooter was one confused dude [MattinSF]
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Actually I don't think its all that funny. Far be it for me to draw out dubious connections between things, but its not all that surprising something like this happens - talk radio, etc. foments a lot of anger by blaming everything wrong in the world on liberals, so its not surprising somebody slightly unhinged would do this. You can only yell fire in a theatre so many times before you start a panic. It's like that speech in American President - "We have serious problems to solve, and we need serious men to solve them. And whatever your particular problem is, friend, I promise you, Bob Rumson is not the least bit interested in solving it. He is interested in two things and two things only: making you afraid of it and telling you who's to blame for it. That, ladies and gentlemen, is how you win elections." You substitute in Rush Limbaugh, Hannity, O'Reilly or any other demogogue windbag for Bob Rumson, and eventually you're going to provoke somebody into something tragic.
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"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security" - Benjamin Franklin
"Don't you see the rest of the country looks upon New York like we're left-wing, communist, Jewish, homosexual pornographers? I think of us that way sometimes and I live here." - Alvy Singer, "Annie Hall"
dave_w
Jul 28, 08 16:08
Post #8 of 60 (447 views)
Re: Knoxville Church shooter was one confused dude [trio_jeepy]
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Actually I don't think its all that funny. Far be it for me to draw out dubious connections between things, but its not all that surprising something like this happens - talk radio, etc. foments a lot of anger by blaming everything wrong in the world on liberals, so its not surprising somebody slightly unhinged would do this. You can only yell fire in a theatre so many times before you start a panic. It's like that speech in American President - "We have serious problems to solve, and we need serious men to solve them. And whatever your particular problem is, friend, I promise you, Bob Rumson is not the least bit interested in solving it. He is interested in two things and two things only: making you afraid of it and telling you who's to blame for it. That, ladies and gentlemen, is how you win elections." You substitute in Rush Limbaugh, Hannity, O'Reilly or any other demogogue windbag for Bob Rumson, and eventually you're going to provoke somebody into something tragic.
Wow, there's a messed up thought process. Oh well, the good news for you is the last high profile church killings in CO got several conservatives!
"It's all about self-esteem"
MattinSF
Jul 28, 08 16:42
Post #9 of 60 (426 views)
Re: Knoxville Church shooter was one confused dude [trio_jeepy]
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Actually I don't think its all that funny. Far be it for me to draw out dubious connections between things, but its not all that surprising something like this happens - talk radio, etc. foments a lot of anger by blaming everything wrong in the world on liberals, so its not surprising somebody slightly unhinged would do this. You can only yell fire in a theatre so many times before you start a panic. It's like that speech in American President - "We have serious problems to solve, and we need serious men to solve them. And whatever your particular problem is, friend, I promise you, Bob Rumson is not the least bit interested in solving it. He is interested in two things and two things only: making you afraid of it and telling you who's to blame for it. That, ladies and gentlemen, is how you win elections." You substitute in Rush Limbaugh, Hannity, O'Reilly or any other demogogue windbag for Bob Rumson, and eventually you're going to provoke somebody into something tragic.
I don't know where you saw the humor because I don't find it funny either.
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HOPE is a plan that worked. CHANGE is a plan that worked. BELIEVE is a plan that worked.
last tri in 83
Jul 28, 08 17:20
Post #10 of 60 (403 views)
Re: Knoxville Church shooter was one confused dude [trio_jeepy]
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I listen to talk radio from about 9 to 4 every day. The sometimes I go home and watch Fox news. I have yet to get the urge to go hunting liberals. I guess that is because I am not mentally ill. Mentally ill people do stuff like this. Sometimes it's a liberal, sometimes Pres. Reagan, sometimes a post office, sometime a bunch of people in McDonald's. To blame talk radio seems a little weak and opportunist.
_____________________________________________
Conservative in exile.
Mr. Tibbs
Jul 28, 08 18:07
Post #11 of 60 (384 views)
Re: Knoxville Church shooter was one confused dude [trio_jeepy]
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Your just like the party you hate. Hate filled bullshit. You are no different then Hannity.
Al P Duez
Jul 28, 08 18:52
Post #12 of 60 (367 views)
Re: Knoxville Church shooter was one confused dude [trio_jeepy]
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you are demagogue windbag; no different than those you oppose.
epsdan
Jul 28, 08 19:41
Post #13 of 60 (348 views)
Re: Knoxville Church shooter was one confused dude [trio_jeepy]
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I usually don't like piling on rants, but on this one I will ...
Given this logic, you need to blame the "liberal media" for John Hinckley's assassination attempt on Reagan. Similarly (hopefully it would never happen) if someone should attempt assassination on President Bush, or the presumptive Republican nominee, Senator McCain, that too would be lain at the feet of the "liberal media".
Similarly, we could develop easy "answers" for assassination attempts on Democratic leaders.
While this simplistic model is appealing (as it is easy for those who don't care to think even a little deeper), it is, IMO, representative of the problem we have in American politics today: we want black or white, easy answers. We are too lazy to think through difficult problems, and we have been raised on sound bites. If Katie or Rush can't lay it out in 30 seconds, they lose our attention.
The problem is US, not our government, nor our news media. We are the ones too lazy to take the time to educate ourselves. How many of us have read (not listened to synopsis of what others have read) about those we politically support, much less about those we politically oppose? When selecting these reading material, do we pick out authors that share our preconceived view, or do we look for other views, or possibly even autobiographical works. How many conservatives have read "The Audacity of Hope", or liberals "Faith of my Fathers".
To address the question more directly, as this is quickly becoming a thread hijack, I don't think the guy did it because of Rush or Hannity - I think he did it because he was nuts (or, more to be PC, he was "dealing with some issues that effected his ability to rationally assess his current situation").
Rant off
trio_jeepy
Jul 28, 08 20:00
Post #14 of 60 (341 views)
Re: Knoxville Church shooter was one confused dude [Al P Duez]
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you are demagogue windbag; no different than those you oppose.
Yep that's me. I'm the one ranting about how xxx is ruining America. I'm the one blaming everything on liberals, conservatives, Muslims, etc.
Give me a fucking break. Why don't you look up "demagogue" in the dictionary before you go spouting.
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"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security" - Benjamin Franklin
"Don't you see the rest of the country looks upon New York like we're left-wing, communist, Jewish, homosexual pornographers? I think of us that way sometimes and I live here." - Alvy Singer, "Annie Hall"
trio_jeepy
Jul 28, 08 20:13
Post #15 of 60 (335 views)
Re: Knoxville Church shooter was one confused dude [epsdan]
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I'm not trying to argue a direct linkage between this attack and attack radio. I doubt it would be provable under the best of circumstances, and in any case, as you point out, ignores the responsibility of the shooter here.
That said, are you all that surprised? The First Amendment, one defended by those noted scoundrels the ACLU, guarantees the right of attack radio to say what they want, within some limits, just as it guarantees our right to argue about it here. But given that you have essentially an entire media form devoted to blaming liberals for everything from terrorism to athlete's foot, are you surprised that someone of essentially soft-headed nature would cling to that as an excuse to hurt those who've been pointed out to him as the cause of some of his problems?
Obviously, the guy is nuts. But does that make it okay for others to make careers provoking people into blaming other people for their problems?
Demagoguery is ugly in all its forms. It is, however, often effective and often attractive. Otherwise you wouldn't have the Bill O'Reillys of the world, or his predecessor, Mort Downey Jr., or his predecessor, Joe McCarthy, or Father Coughlin, etc. I have to ask, what is the point of it? Are we that naive to think that its only to generate ratings, money, personal esteem, and power, and that such a quest can't dangerously venture into calls for action, even if they are in the territory of "plausible deniability"?
I take this tack not because I want to think that Rush has the power to inspire incredibly stupid or incredibly insane acts. I do find it strange in that I'm not sure I've ever heard of such a rampage before. We have a tortured history in this country of borderline personalities doing violent things under the inspiration of extreme personalities. My only question is whether something like this was inevitable, and whether it should have been considered an eventuality given the constant vilification of liberals in an entire media channel.
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"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security" - Benjamin Franklin
"Don't you see the rest of the country looks upon New York like we're left-wing, communist, Jewish, homosexual pornographers? I think of us that way sometimes and I live here." - Alvy Singer, "Annie Hall"
epsdan
Jul 28, 08 20:49
Post #16 of 60 (320 views)
Re: Knoxville Church shooter was one confused dude [trio_jeepy]
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In a limited sense, I agree.
I also noted that you completely ignore the far more established media outlets that, while more subtle, certainly lay the blame for all things, "from terrorism to athlete's foot" (I like that!) at the doorstep of our current president, just like "they" did during Reagan’s terms. It has been a long time (probably since Reagan) that we have witnessed this much hate from the left towards any conservative political figure. Unfortunately, the right has no monopoly on hate speech either as individuals, in small group settings (such as this), or on a national or international stage, as demonstrated by our established left-leaning news media.
This bifurcation of what should be a spectrum of ideas is why "Buck Fush" and "Obama Sucks" bumper stickers are available and displayed. We either hate Bush, or Obama. There can me no middle. This "fact" is purveyed by both the established (liberal) media and the right leaning talk radio, and it serves their interest - to divide the pie up. You're one or the other. Try establishing a "middle of the road" interactive format, where people actually sit down and exchange ideas, and try and understand the roots of their disagreements. How much advertising dollars would that command - not enough to pay the bills, I bet!
I, for one, do not listen either to the Rush/Hannity crowd, nor to the Al Franken/Ed Schultz kooks (I have enough to know that I'm wasting my time). Reasonable conversation between reasonable people, who take the time to get educated on the topics, and who are able and willing to reassess their positions if new information is obtainable, are really the only solution to this problem. That is what we need more of.
BTW, while I disagree with you, I believe our exchange is an example of the reasonable discourse. As stated above, this is important, if we are ever to move beyond the babbling that currently takes up most of the available bandwidth, and leads to nothing but more division, and less understanding, in our country.
Dan
trio_jeepy
Jul 28, 08 21:10
Post #17 of 60 (310 views)
Re: Knoxville Church shooter was one confused dude [epsdan]
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I don't disagree that demagoguery can come from both sides. I don't know that I would agree that the MSM is somehow responsible for demagoguery against Bush for the simple reason that I actually think they have been comparatively gentle to him for a couple of reasons, the first being that the news cycle moves so quickly that its rare that any particular story lasts more than 1 cycle, and second that the MSM, in its quest to appear "balanced" often interposes the alternative viewpoint to any story critical of Bush, regardless of comparative validity, or lack thereof. I think the other problem is that Bush's administration has been remarkably partisan and incompetent - even today the IG of the Justice Department reported that AG Gonzalez and Goodling acted illegally in screening career prosecutors for political loyalties. This is, of course, in addition to a variety of other similar scandals. So I think that reporting on this and other similar failures is not necessarily indicative of some sort of MSM vendetta. I suspect even the staunchest Republican is tired of this Administration's disregard for the rule of law, at least based on current satisfaction polls.
I think you are right in arguing that the middle has disappeared to some extent. I'm a liberal, of course, so take this as you will, but I think this has much to do with a deterioration of civility in political and public conversation. And unfortunately, I think this has a lot to do with the aforementioned demagoguery, which has reduced everything into terms of "with or against" rather than those of nuance. Nuance is now painted as a refuge of the namby-pamby liberal, which I am happy to reside in, despite the fact that others find it easy to attack with straw men, this thread included. As you see, I am happy to discuss this in rational terms, but that doesn't prevent a couple of previous posters from descending into immediate name-calling and rants.
I think the reality that has been reached is that politics is about winning. If that means painting your opponent as unpatriotic and potentially treasonous, then in that context its the right thing to do. Liberals tend not to argue in these terms, for a variety of reasons. My suspicion is that the other side considers this an essential moral weakness of liberals, this unwillingness to do whatever it takes to win, while liberals consider it a core virtue, but one that is dangerous in elections. If you consider things in this context, then this puzzling extremism is not all that mysterious. But you're right - unless we make it clear that this sort of brainless "dialogue" does nothing to actually improve the lives of citizens, then we will get more and deserve it.
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"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security" - Benjamin Franklin
"Don't you see the rest of the country looks upon New York like we're left-wing, communist, Jewish, homosexual pornographers? I think of us that way sometimes and I live here." - Alvy Singer, "Annie Hall"
vitus979
Jul 28, 08 21:17
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Re: Knoxville Church shooter was one confused dude [trio_jeepy]
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But given that you have essentially an entire media form devoted to blaming liberals for everything from terrorism to athlete's foot, are you surprised that someone of essentially soft-headed nature would cling to that as an excuse to hurt those who've been pointed out to him as the cause of some of his problems?
Sez the dude blaming conservatives for a church shooting . . .
It's one thing to be partisian. It's another to be oblivious. Wake up.
"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
epsdan
Jul 28, 08 21:35
Post #19 of 60 (300 views)
Re: Knoxville Church shooter was one confused dude [trio_jeepy]
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Regarding the MSM, I think on this item, we can "agree to disagree", as I, from my perspective as a fiscal conservative, see the media as quite biased towards the left. I think there are a number of examples of this, but pushing this point will tend to belabor what we essentially have agreed on, that there is demagoguery on both sides of the aisle, both in media and in elected leaders. It's actually an interesting argument for me, as I am fairly liberal socially, and I recognize the bias here as well, although I tend to "agree" with it. In both cases, irrespective of whether I agree or disagree with it, I do not agree that individual perspectives should be as voiced as they currently are in the "news". That should be the function of the editorial. That, however, is "just my opinion", and certainly not enforceable in any way, other than by us, as the media consumers being informed, and recognizing it for what it is.
Again, as far as the rest of your statement, I generally agree. I wonder, sometimes, if our desire to win, even at the cost of "the truth" would really be what we would want, if we sat down and considered it. Not to hijack the thread, but I heard (on liberal talk radio on the drive home this evening, BTW), what I considered to be, a reasonable approach to the energy problem, from a lady (don't know her politics or affiliation, of even her name), and she was just being killed by a liberal talk radio dude, as she was advocating drilling as a relatively short term solution, with a reasonably "holistic" portfolio approach for the long term, moving away from oil and gas as much as possible in the long term, and essentially saving it for technologies that require O&G. His take was that all we needed was wind and solar. He had ready answers for everything she brought up (so he'd obviously prepared), most of them complete BS. My question, as I couldn't stand to listen to it anymore was: Does he really believe what he is spouting (did he drink the kool-aid), or is it just another "win at all cost" showdown?
Unfortunately, I lost my stomach for "nasty" radio, of either ilk, a long time ago.
MattinSF
Jul 28, 08 21:50
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Re: Knoxville Church shooter was one confused dude [epsdan]
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biased to the left? I just saw Larry King kiss JOhn McCain's ass for 45 minutes. Never saw a Democratic candidate get that sort of treatment ever from anyone. I loved the last question..Senator you voted for affirmitve action before you were against it...explain yourself? blah blah blah blah...dodge the question..blah blah....OK, there you have it folks, John Mccain explains that misunderstanding. It was hilarious.
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HOPE is a plan that worked. CHANGE is a plan that worked. BELIEVE is a plan that worked.
epsdan
Jul 28, 08 22:19
Post #21 of 60 (286 views)
Re: Knoxville Church shooter was one confused dude [MattinSF]
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Matt,
I'm glad that you saw Larry King and McCain in the aforementioned activity, but your single observation, colored largely by "what you really want to believe", a statistic doesn't make.
While this is a tactic generally used by the left ("MSM is not liberally biased, it's evil RW radio that's biased"), it doesn't wash, either historically, or based on current observations.
Let's look at historically - It goes back farther, but the 80's was when statistical content studies were done, and surveys were performed of media figures, and their political leanings. One of the most often quoted was Lichter/Rothman work on content surveys. It was a reviewed work and clearly showed a large bias in the media toward liberal positions. While this doesn't necessarily correlate to biased reporting, it is a significant indicator. It is my belief (no statistics here - full disclosure) that while the underlying beliefs have been there since the early 80's, I think the tendency to voice opinions as news is significantly greater today in the MSM than it was 20+ years ago. Obviously this is also true of the RW (and left wing) talk radio media today, so I won't even bother to discuss that.
BTW, as there always is, when one disagrees with the message, the tendancy to nominate the messenger for assassination. In order to dispute his creds, Lichter, in particular, is vilified as an evil conservative, taking funding from the evil conservative machine. Unfortunately, if you look at the funding for the non-profit Center for Media and Public Affairs, which is Lichter's baby, it get's big bucks from both sides of the aisle, since among those who take the time to care, it really is pretty academic and accurate.
As for the media preferences today (this argument is a lot more empirical), just check out who is attending who's fundraisers and parties: It's largely personalities for Obama, and a bunch of stogy old suits with bucks for McCain. (I'm guessing that you'd only agree with half of this statement).
I'm always happy to discuss these issues with anyone who is truly interested in discovery and discourse. A lot of times, I'm lucky enough to learn something in these discussion as well. If you just want to keep repeating your mantra as you sip the colored drink, though, I'll have to pass. Life's short, and I have a lot of training to do!
Cheers
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trio_jeepy
Jul 29, 08 1:24
Post #22 of 60 (279 views)
Re: Knoxville Church shooter was one confused dude [epsdan]
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I'll take your word on the Lichter studies, but I would point out that the data and environment today would suggest vastly different results, for no other reason than the inclusion of Foxnews and the profusion of opinion/talking head shows, which would suggest that some separation has occurred.
That said, I think that to some extent the MSM interest in balanced reporting has handicapped them from calling bullshit on some more obvious canards. Just off the top of my head, I don't recall the news shows doing more than providing both "sides" during the most recent evolution dustup, giving the ID advocates way more legitimacy than they deserved and clearly deceiving some viewers into believing that they were on similar planes of scientific inquiry, which is clearly not the case.
I think the other problem that arises when you have this polarization is that sides believe they are entitled to their own facts, which is certainly not the case. All you need to do is ask whether Hussein was involved with 9/11 and you can still get varied accounts despite that question being asked and answered, repeatedly. That doesn't happen by accident. I think it's at that point one risks crossing a line by calling the obvious bullshit but then having to argue something on political grounds which is clearly a waste of time.
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"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security" - Benjamin Franklin
"Don't you see the rest of the country looks upon New York like we're left-wing, communist, Jewish, homosexual pornographers? I think of us that way sometimes and I live here." - Alvy Singer, "Annie Hall"
David in FL
Jul 29, 08 4:41
Post #23 of 60 (263 views)
Re: Knoxville Church shooter was one confused dude [last tri in 83]
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To blame talk radio seems a little weak and opportunist.
And stupid.
Sorry, it had to be said.
"Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in a grey twilight that knows not victory nor defeat."
Theodore Roosevelt
BarryP
Jul 29, 08 6:36
Post #24 of 60 (237 views)
Re: Knoxville Church shooter was one confused dude [MattinSF]
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Not responding to anyone in particular (so I'll pick Matt), but you simply can't compare "liberal media bias" to what is said on conservative talk radio. Keith Oberman is the most liberal man on TV that I'm aware of, and I would say that you could take the worst 10 minutes of a given show and compare that to any random sampling of Limbaugh or Coulter and he doesn't come close.
The "liberal media" doesn't spew the type of hate filled partisan nonsense that these conservative radio hosts do. Your best comparison would be Air America hosts like Randi Rhodes or Sam Seader, but as everyone knows, no one listens to them.
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last tri in 83
Jul 29, 08 7:27
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Re: Knoxville Church shooter was one confused dude [BarryP]
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that is very much a matter of opinion.
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Conservative in exile.
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