Slowtwitch Forums: Lavender Room: How much do we earn? Census data on income and taxes

Calendar Retailers Stack & Reach Custom Geometry Calculator (beta) More To Come...
		MAIN INDEX	RULES & LEGEND	LOG IN

Search for (options)

Newsletter Signup

Slowtwitch Forums: Lavender Room:
How much do we earn? Census data on income and taxes

1 2 3

View All

TBinMT

Oct 8, 08 5:50

Post #1 of 59 (692 views)

How much do we earn? Census data on income and taxes	Can't Post

Most people make less than $32,000 a year. And yes, they pay almost no taxes.

Ten percent make six figures or more. And yes they pay most of the taxes:

link:
http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/...icher-50percent.aspx

Also interesting: The rich really are a lot richer and the poor really are poorer than 20 years ago:

"New statistics from the Internal Revenue Service show that the highest-earning 1% of taxpayers in America make 22.06% of all income reported to the government. That's almost twice the 12.51% of total income earned collectively by the lowest-earning 50% of workers."

"In 1986, the top 1% of earners reported 11% of all income and paid 26% of the income taxes; the lower-earning 50% made 17% of the income and paid 6% of the nation's individual income-tax bill."

Interesting stuff.

blueraider_mike

Oct 8, 08 6:19

Post #2 of 59 (675 views)

Re: How much do we earn? Census data on income and taxes [TBinMT] [In reply to]	Can't Post

We live in a knowledge economy. If you have half a brain and can show up for work on time, you will make more than 32K. I am part owner of a healthcare SW company - I run sales. We have 118 employees, not one of them makes less than 45K and our average salary is much higher. In our great country, every person gets a free education, I feel like most of the folks at the lower end have not taken advantage of their education and for the most part are where they are exactly based on their decisions.

We can spin the numbers any way we want, but the "result" of the tax code reflects most progressive system than at anytime in history. Poor people pay no taxes (the bottom 40% actually receive checks from the govt although they do not pay any fed income tax), middle class pays fewer taxes and the rich pay a greater share. Yet it still is not fair...because the rich make more. This is so much bullshit. We have, thru our tax code created a huge class warfare and a major voting bloc that is manna from heaven for the democrats.

We do not have an income problem, we have a spending problem. This spending problem just isn't at the govt level, its on Wall street, its on main street and its in 90% of the individual households.

Rob C in FL

Oct 8, 08 6:38

Post #3 of 59 (662 views)

Re: How much do we earn? Census data on income and taxes [TBinMT] [In reply to]	Can't Post

"The rich really are a lot richer and the poor really are poorer than 20 years ago."

That conclusion doesn't follow from any of the statistics you cite.
-------
Rob Cunningham
http://www.humanactioncourse.info

triblaq

Oct 8, 08 7:01

Post #4 of 59 (644 views)

Re: How much do we earn? Census data on income and taxes [blueraider_mike] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

Poor people pay no taxes (the bottom 40% actually receive checks from the govt although they do not pay any fed income tax), middle class pays fewer taxes and the rich pay a greater share. Yet it still is not fair...because the rich make more. This is so much bullshit. We have, thru our tax code created a huge class warfare and a major voting bloc that is manna from heaven for the democrats.

Second time I've heard this today. The first was on CNBC this morning. What are you talking about with this checks from the government stuff? Where do you get this information? Also, you talk about the rich paying a greater share. Makes sense since they have more income. Isn't it fair to have everyone pay roughly the same percentage of their income, in taxes? Isn't that basically what the Dems are for and the repubs against?

____________________________________________________
"All men should strive to learn before they die what they are running from, and to, and why." - James Thurber

last tri in 83

Oct 8, 08 7:54

Post #5 of 59 (610 views)

Re: How much do we earn? Census data on income and taxes [blueraider_mike] [In reply to]	Can't Post

what he said

_____________________________________________
Conservative in exile.

last tri in 83

Oct 8, 08 8:00

Post #6 of 59 (603 views)

Re: How much do we earn? Census data on income and taxes [triblaq] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Second time I've heard this today. The first was on CNBC this morning. What are you talking about with this checks from the government stuff? Where do you get this information? Also, you talk about the rich paying a greater share. Makes sense since they have more income. Isn't it fair to have everyone pay roughly the same percentage of their income, in taxes? Isn't that basically what the Dems are for and the repubs against?

Maybe he is talking about the rebate where those who pay little or no got rebates and those that pay the most did not.

Roughly the same percentage in taxes? That doesn't sound like Barry's plan.

_____________________________________________
Conservative in exile.

Bruce Wayne

Oct 8, 08 8:10

Post #7 of 59 (589 views)

Re: How much do we earn? Census data on income and taxes [triblaq] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

How does over 30% and 0% become roughly the same percentage in your mind?

_________________________________________________

Rob C in FL

Oct 8, 08 8:19

Post #8 of 59 (576 views)

Re: How much do we earn? Census data on income and taxes [triblaq] [In reply to]	Can't Post

"What are you talking about with this checks from the government stuff?"

I think that was probably a reference to the EITC.

"Also, you talk about the rich paying a greater share. Makes sense since they have more income. Isn't it fair to have everyone pay roughly the same percentage of their income, in taxes? Isn't that basically what the Dems are for and the repubs against?"

Huh? As the article linked by the OP points out, the bottom 50% of earners earn 12.51% of the income but pay just 2.99% of the taxes. That hardly amounts to "roughly the same percentage of their income"--in fact, you're off by a factor of more than 4.
-------
Rob Cunningham
http://www.humanactioncourse.info

steveperx

Oct 8, 08 8:19

Post #9 of 59 (577 views)

Re: How much do we earn? Census data on income and taxes [triblaq] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Isn't it fair to have everyone pay roughly the same percentage of their income, in taxes? Isn't that basically what the Dems are for and the repubs against?

No. The democrats want the top 5% to pay a higher percentage of their income.

-------------------------------------
Steve Perkins

blueraider_mike

Oct 8, 08 8:20

Post #10 of 59 (574 views)

Re: How much do we earn? Census data on income and taxes [triblaq] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Triblaq,

I get me data from irs.gov, its all public information. Bottomline is DO NOT focus on tax rates, focus on ACTUAL tax dollars paid.

The bottom 40%, pay negative federal taxes. For example, lets say someone who makes 40K pays 4K in withholding...after deductions, earn income tax credit, child tax credit, mortgage dedcutions, stimulas checks that come in the mail they get back from the govt 6K - thus they paid 4K, they got back 6K - THEY ARE MAKING MONEY FROM THE GOVT.

So the question becomes, who really pays. Look at the top income brackets, look at the % of all taxes they paid say in 1940, in 1960, in 1980, and look at the % they paid in 2006 - what you will find is that after the Bush cuts in rates, they are paying an ever increasing larger % of the total tax burden - which mean is much more progressive, which should make libs feel better.

Just so we are clear, those that make more should pay more...and they do, at an ever increasing rate. So if you are in say the bottom 60%, why don't you walk up to a rich person and just say "thank you" and leave it at that.

ston_ar

Oct 8, 08 8:23

Post #11 of 59 (566 views)

Re: How much do we earn? Census data on income and taxes [blueraider_mike] [In reply to]	Can't Post

The problem is the economy is a capital based economy, and capital is really the only way to move up in our society. Capital as I define it in this sense is not only money and machinery, but also the cognitive abilities and education of the individual. Unfortunately both categories tend to favor the rich. It is way easier to get capital to expand a business if you already have one, or have connections to people who have the money to start something up. Cognitive abilities are normally distributed so there are plenty of poor people who are a hell of a lot smarter than you are, and I am, but have never gotten the opportunity to show that due to growing up in some shithole and having to work at 16 to keep from going hungry. A High School diploma won't get you much anymore in this country, even most of the people I go to school with (top 10 public university in the country), are probably going to grad school because an undergrad degree doesn't always cut it anymore.

ike

Oct 8, 08 8:27

Post #12 of 59 (553 views)

Re: How much do we earn? Census data on income and taxes [TBinMT] [In reply to]	Can't Post

"Most people make less than $32,000 a year. And yes, they pay almost no taxes"

The article talks about them paying little in the way of income taxes, not any taxes whatsoever. If one included other forms of tax, such as sales taxes, social security taxes, etc., the poorer folks would be paying a % of their income that is way above zero. I am sure that the taxes paid by the rich constitute a much higher % of their taxable income than taxes paid by the poor, but including all taxes rather than just income taxes, would narrow the gap and make the comparison a lot more relevant.

Bruce Wayne

Oct 8, 08 8:28

Post #13 of 59 (553 views)

Re: How much do we earn? Census data on income and taxes [ston_ar] [In reply to]	Can't Post

How does increasing taxes on the rich fix the inequities you point out in your post?

_________________________________________________

blueraider_mike

Oct 8, 08 8:37

Post #14 of 59 (543 views)

Re: How much do we earn? Census data on income and taxes [ston_ar] [In reply to]	Can't Post

ston_er,

At the age of 5-8, my family was on welfare, we lived in public housing - and thousands of americans overcome their beginnings. Each of us has a free education, its up to you to make the most of it. Of course, things are easier for the rich, always has been, always will be. If you are not rich, you will have to apply yourself, you will have to work harder - tough shit and that is life but in our country all the opportunities are before you, its up to you.

Don't buy into this notion that you need a graduate degree to be successful, ITS A LIE. I have an MBA, has not made me one more penny in my career, has not put me in a better position - its been my experience and success. I wish I would not have wasted the 30K and the two years of time. Your income will be based on the value you bring to the company you work for. Maybe I should go back and teach you youngsters so you can hear the truth.

Lastly, most of my friends that are truly wealthy own small businesses and good portion of them have a high school degree. College is not for everyone...and is not neccessary to be successful.

ston_ar

Oct 8, 08 8:37

Post #15 of 59 (542 views)

Re: How much do we earn? Census data on income and taxes [steveperx] [In reply to]	Can't Post

30% is actually pretty low in the history of the U.S. income tax
year top rate
1916 15
1917 67
1918 77
1920 25
1936 79
1945 94
1954 87
1981 50
1986 28
1993 39.6
2001 33

Basically when the government needs money due to an economic downturn the rich get taxed more. It really won't do much to close the income gap, when only a small minority of people can have access to the international market, which I believe is the future.
A note to everyone, look up John Rawls: he's a modern political thinker, his idea of the Original Position and how that would effect social systems is pretty interesting. Especially his thought that its inherently unfair that people were born with differing ablities.

Old and Haggard

Oct 8, 08 8:37

Post #16 of 59 (541 views)

Re: How much do we earn? Census data on income and taxes [blueraider_mike] [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

I think you have to look at those numbers again. How is it that someone making 40K can come up with > $10,000 in deductions in order to itemize? And someone making $40,000 will pay over $3,000 in FICA/SSI alone; I suspect that they aren't getting any of that back.
-----------------------------------
Ken Lehner

"reread klenher [sic] and pretty much skip the rest." - desert dude 5/25/2008

steveperx

Oct 8, 08 8:46

Post #17 of 59 (531 views)

Re: How much do we earn? Census data on income and taxes [ston_ar] [In reply to]	Can't Post

30% is actually pretty low in the history of the U.S. income tax

What's your point? Doesn't Obama want the top 5% to pay a higher percentage of their income to tax than the other 95%?

Basically when the government needs money due to an economic downturn the rich get taxed more. It really won't do much to close the income gap, when only a small minority of people can have access to the international market, which I believe is the future.

I didn't say it would. Again, I was just pointing out to triblaq that the Democratic party is not, in fact, in favor of having everyone pay an equal percentage of their income to tax

-------------------------------------
Steve Perkins

ston_ar

Oct 8, 08 8:49

Post #18 of 59 (527 views)

Re: How much do we earn? Census data on income and taxes [Bruce Wayne] [In reply to]	Can't Post

It doesn't directly, and thats the problem. Income tax merely spreads around the wealth based on advantages already gained. The goal should be to level the playing field. If this means huge education overhaul to double teachers salaries (making it possible to afford to live off one teacher salary) and increase the number of effective and motivated teachers, as well as making it easier to dismiss poor teachers. Oooo I know a good one. The "death tax" as many like to call it. What gives you the right to claim money from someone else? You were just lucky to get born into a family that has money, and I was unlucky not to. Lets jack that up and let some of the spoiled and stupid rich kids (there are some out there) get some downward social mobility, (stirring the pot) making more room at the top for those that actually do something to deserve it. The real problem is still that of opportunity as a whole those with it and already at the top can abuse it to the detriment of our whole society, while many of those at the bottom, even with more natural ability and drive will never get above working at McDonald's due to their poor luck and lack of opportunity.

last tri in 83

Oct 8, 08 8:50

Post #19 of 59 (524 views)

Re: How much do we earn? Census data on income and taxes [ston_ar] [In reply to]	Can't Post

The democrat candidate has a life history that goes against your theory.

_____________________________________________
Conservative in exile.

David in FL

Oct 8, 08 9:01

Post #20 of 59 (517 views)

Re: How much do we earn? Census data on income and taxes [steveperx] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I was just pointing out to triblaq that the Democratic party is not, in fact, in favor of having everyone pay an equal percentage of their income to tax

From each according to their ability, to each according to their need......

......"ability" and "need" as determined by the Party.

"Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in a grey twilight that knows not victory nor defeat."

Theodore Roosevelt

ston_ar

Oct 8, 08 9:06

Post #21 of 59 (510 views)

Re: How much do we earn? Census data on income and taxes [blueraider_mike] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Very true that thousands overachieve and haul themselves out by their own bootstraps, and thats commendable, those who manage to do it are either very intelligent, hard working, or lucky, or a combination of those. And I probably overstated the necessity of college and or grad school, but only for the exceptional people. Those that are naturally exceptional have a much greater chance of overcoming a crappy situation like you did, and many small business owners do. On the flip side, there are TONS of dumbshits I go to school with, who's family ties and situation allowed them to get into a good college, those are the people that need to get grad degrees because they don't stick out on a pile of job applications.
I am still all for the attempted leveling of the playing field. Many people do get out of their terrible situation, but many who have the same abilities or even superior ones fail in their attempt. I believe that in order to make the country and the world a better place, we need to give those who need it a helping hand. Even a little boost could help even more of the cream rise to the top, and more great minds is never a bad thing. Our first steps need to be to improve our education system, especially in lower income areas (really tough to do), and use that improvement to help everyone, especially those of high potential to overcome their initial lot in life.

Bruce Wayne

Oct 8, 08 9:08

Post #22 of 59 (509 views)

Re: How much do we earn? Census data on income and taxes [ston_ar] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I see you are hitting many of the the marxist keywords in your post: spreads wealth, levels playing field, lack of opportunity, detriment of our whole society. Frankly, I don't want a government like that; especially since there is nothing in our Constitution that allows these types of programs within the Federal Government.

I agree that our educational system needs a complete overhaul, but I am sure we wouldn't agree on how to go about it. BTW, when my wife was teaching, she was making $54,000 a year; why do you think that is not enough to live on?

As for the death tax, why do you think the government deserves the money more than the spouse, son, daughter, or anyother person the individual who made the money and paid taxes on decides to give to? This is why many small and large businesses for that matter are forced to close or sell upon the death of the owner (see the St. Louis Rams for a recent instance) just to pay the taxes. If you think this doesn't cost people their livlihood; you are seriously mistaken.

_________________________________________________

ston_ar

Oct 8, 08 9:09

Post #23 of 59 (506 views)

Re: How much do we earn? Census data on income and taxes [last tri in 83] [In reply to]	Can't Post

I never said it was an exclusive theory, it has holes. But Obama, I think we can all agree, used his natural ability to move up, as well as a lot of hard work. It's an exception rather than the rule.

last tri in 83

Oct 8, 08 9:11

Post #24 of 59 (503 views)

Re: How much do we earn? Census data on income and taxes [ston_ar] [In reply to]	Can't Post

The point is that it's available to everyone. All it takes is a moderate amount of motivation.

_____________________________________________
Conservative in exile.

blueraider_mike

Oct 8, 08 9:23

Post #25 of 59 (487 views)

Re: How much do we earn? Census data on income and taxes [Old and Haggard] [In reply to]	Can't Post

Ken,

The example that I used was made up, I was just trying to show logic. FICA taxes are another conversation, the discussion is about federal income taxes...

Oh and by the way. If you make 40K, there are plenty of goodies, Child care tax credit and excemptions alone with a small house (mortgage deduction), with healthcare deductions and stimilus checks gets you WAY over 10K.

1 2 3

View All