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Hitchens undergoes waterboarding
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Old and Haggard
Jul 2, 08 11:51
Post #1 of 34 (706 views)
Hitchens undergoes waterboarding
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http://www.vanityfair.com/...¤tPage=all
Wow.
Among other things, he cites those who dispute Khalid Sheikh Mohammed lasting a long time (“Hell,” said one, “from what I heard they only washed his damn face before he babbled.”).
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Ken Lehner
Weight-room free since 1995...
"reread klenher [sic] and pretty much skip the rest." - desert dude 5/25/2008
Slowman
Jul 2, 08 12:15
Post #2 of 34 (679 views)
Re: Hitchens undergoes waterboarding [klehner]
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hitchins is about the only hard-core intellectual conservative we have in this country, sort of the heir to buckley. but just as buckley was surprisingly resilient in his thinking, hitchins is likewise apt to come to a nonconformist conclusion. he and andrew sullivan swept over here from the UK as idealogical brothers in arms, with sullivan quickly moving to the social left while remaining on the fiscal right. hitchins remains on the right in just about every category, tho he's not the thick-foreheaded neocon in the manner of kristol and pearl. as such, he's rightly figured out what the problem with and nature of torture is.
Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
IAMike
Jul 2, 08 12:18
Post #3 of 34 (673 views)
Re: Hitchens undergoes waterboarding [klehner]
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very good reading. thanks for sharing that ken.
jkca1
Jul 2, 08 12:37
Post #4 of 34 (647 views)
Re: Hitchens undergoes waterboarding [klehner]
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Thanks. How low we have sunk as a nation to allow this.
"No one is remembered for the novel they almost wrote."
trio_jeepy
Jul 2, 08 12:49
Post #5 of 34 (628 views)
Re: Hitchens undergoes waterboarding [Slowman]
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Hitchens is an interesting case - my perception is that he has few if any connections to the right-wing political apparatus of this country, conservative as he might be. Its not clear to me whether this is the reason or result behind his more intellectual takes on issues, rather than a more purely partisan, daily talking points approach. You contrast him with Kristol, or for that matter Brooks, who consider themselves intellectuals, yet whose weekly editorials read like gradual descents into gross stupidity. Hitchens is nothing if not fiercely independent, and by the looks of this article, willing to go to the mat to prove or disprove his own point. On the other hand, Brooks can't even go to Applebee's to show how little he knows of their mythical salad bar.
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"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security" - Benjamin Franklin
"Don't you see the rest of the country looks upon New York like we're left-wing, communist, Jewish, homosexual pornographers? I think of us that way sometimes and I live here." - Alvy Singer, "Annie Hall"
Uncle Arqyle
Jul 2, 08 14:19
Post #6 of 34 (541 views)
Re: Hitchens undergoes waterboarding [Slowman]
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Your exposure to intellectual conservatives seems to be based on "news" show commentators. Try Thomas Sowell and Walter Williams if you care to read some modern day Conservative literature.
spot
Jul 2, 08 14:36
Post #7 of 34 (529 views)
Re: Hitchens undergoes waterboarding [klehner]
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If you go to websites like Small Wars Journal or other military forums, you will find zippo support (at least I've never seen any) for waterboarding or other forms of torture
Spot
Cervelo / Kuota Mafia Member
"Mine goes to 11...."
Mr. Tibbs
Jul 2, 08 15:54
Post #8 of 34 (487 views)
Re: Hitchens undergoes waterboarding [klehner]
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That is one brave dude. He is head shoulders above most reporters and editors because he doesn't live by talking about polls. He goes places and does things to learn.
As far as talk about him being conservative, he is but that is very different then being in the neo-cons hip pocket. His refusal to declare love for the baby Jesus, Muhamid, God or any sacred cow makes him untouchable to the Democrats or Republicans. Which makes me love him all the more.
I am jenh's bitch.
I am Andypant's cabana boy.
I am parkito's bag man.
sphere
Jul 2, 08 16:39
Post #9 of 34 (462 views)
Re: Hitchens undergoes waterboarding [klehner]
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I'll repeat my stance on waterboarding, since Hitch seems to draw the same conclusion here:
anyone who claims waterboarding is not torture should be subjected to it for five minutes. If they can go the distance without being coerced into calling it as such, I'll believe it.
Any legislator or politician who faces the question whether to define it as such should be required to undergo it personally, and it should continue for a brief period of time after they've called out the safety word, similar to how a suspect may be treated. What better way to make an informed decision, right?
"A facility for quotation covers the absence of original thought." - Dorothy L. Sayers
(This post was
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MattinSF
Jul 2, 08 17:06
Post #10 of 34 (443 views)
Re: Hitchens undergoes waterboarding [sphere]
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I was unaware that McCain had flipped on waterboarding. Sad.
We used to occupy the moral high ground in this country but now, sadly, we belong woth and deserved to be lumped in with the "ends justify the means" moral cellar dwellers.
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"Personally, I think a McCain presidency would be a disaster as he proceeds to piss off everyone."
ajfranke
spot
Jul 2, 08 17:33
Post #11 of 34 (424 views)
Re: Hitchens undergoes waterboarding [MattinSF]
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Actually, McCain voted against a larger bill that included a ban on waterboarding, not a flip or saying that waterboarding was now OK. I believe that McCain is still against the practice.
Spot
Cervelo / Kuota Mafia Member
"Mine goes to 11...."
last tri in 83
Jul 2, 08 17:39
Post #12 of 34 (421 views)
Re: Hitchens undergoes waterboarding [MattinSF]
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Are there methods you approve of to extract needed information from our enemies?
_____________________________________________
“I never exaggerate. I just remember big.”—Chi Chi Rodriguez
Tim
sphere
Jul 2, 08 18:13
Post #13 of 34 (406 views)
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Tri N OC
Jul 2, 08 18:36
Post #14 of 34 (391 views)
Re: Hitchens undergoes waterboarding [sphere]
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I don't know all the details of the bill (which is obviously necessary in fully understanding the rationale behind the vote)
Yup, its those pesky details that will get you everytime. It was the Intelligence Authorization Bill. Dianne Feinstein wanted to apply the Army Field Manual on the topic to the entire goverment.
It would have been an opportune time to take a hard stance against the practice he says he doesn't support. He didn't.
I think you will have to work harder to find the flip flop on this issue. The following is his soundbite response to the no vote according to CBS News, not one of McCain's fans.
"McCain, who was tortured as a prisoner of war in Vietnam, is well-known for his opposition to waterboarding, which puts him at odds with the Bush administration.
"I knew I would be criticized for it," McCain told reporters Wednesday in Ohio. "I think I can show my record is clear. I said there should be additional techniques allowed to other agencies of government as long as they were not" torture.
"I was on the record as saying that they could use additional techniques as long as they were not cruel, inhumane and degrading treatment," McCain said. "So the vote was in keeping with my clear record of saying that they could have additional techniques, but those techniques could not violate" international rules against torture.
http://www.cbsnews.com/...ttr=Politics_3852533
sphere
Jul 2, 08 19:06
Post #15 of 34 (370 views)
Re: Hitchens undergoes waterboarding [Tri N OC]
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Mea culpa. Just read further into it beyond the NYT summary. Unfair characterization, post edited.
"A facility for quotation covers the absence of original thought." - Dorothy L. Sayers
ashayk
Jul 2, 08 21:12
Post #16 of 34 (345 views)
Re: Hitchens undergoes waterboarding [trio_jeepy]
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I've always felt it's because Hitchens is actually a conservative as opposed to that odd species known as neo-conservative. As such, he's actually concerned about the truth as opposed to pushing a particular agenda regardless of the truth. Poedheritz(sp?), the Godfather of the neo-con movement had a philosophy of telling the little people whatever they need to hear. For the greater good, of course ;). Hitchens at least has remained intellectually honest whatever you think of his position.
ashayk
Jul 2, 08 21:14
Post #17 of 34 (344 views)
Re: Hitchens undergoes waterboarding [spot]
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That is really encouraging. Glad there are pockets of sanity remaining.
HUB
Jul 3, 08 7:20
Post #18 of 34 (281 views)
Re: Hitchens undergoes waterboarding [klehner]
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O.K. I'll step in and go against the grain and say I support waterboarding.It is a non lethal form of interrogation.Lets look at the other sides of interrogation with Hamas or AQ they drag you thru the streets behead you then ask questions!
Old and Haggard
Jul 3, 08 7:24
Post #19 of 34 (274 views)
Re: Hitchens undergoes waterboarding [HUB]
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O.K. I'll step in and go against the grain and say I support waterboarding.It is a non lethal form of interrogation.Lets look at the other sides of interrogation with Hamas or AQ they drag you thru the streets behead you then ask questions!
Is "non-lethal" the only thing that matters in your determination? How about applying electrodes to genitals? That okay?
And approved torture methods are relative to what others do? As long as someone does worse things, we're okay?
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Ken Lehner
Weight-room free since 1995...
"reread klenher [sic] and pretty much skip the rest." - desert dude 5/25/2008
last tri in 83
Jul 3, 08 7:57
Post #20 of 34 (256 views)
Re: Hitchens undergoes waterboarding [klehner]
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Ken, is there any means that you approve of to extract info from our enemies?
_____________________________________________
“I never exaggerate. I just remember big.”—Chi Chi Rodriguez
Tim
vitus979
Jul 3, 08 7:59
Post #21 of 34 (254 views)
Re: Hitchens undergoes waterboarding [last tri in 83]
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Normal interrogation techniques, as far as I'm aware, aren't opposed by anyone.
"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
Old and Haggard
Jul 3, 08 8:01
Post #22 of 34 (248 views)
Re: Hitchens undergoes waterboarding [last tri in 83]
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Ken, is there any means that you approve of to extract info from our enemies?
There are a number of effective methods to extract
reliable
information from suspects, none of which use physical abuse. The FBI knows all about them, and used them effectively in Afghanistan (IIRC) before the CIA and their subcontractors took over and started their crap.
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Ken Lehner
Weight-room free since 1995...
"reread klenher [sic] and pretty much skip the rest." - desert dude 5/25/2008
last tri in 83
Jul 3, 08 8:12
Post #23 of 34 (239 views)
Re: Hitchens undergoes waterboarding [vitus979]
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tickling of the feet with a feather until the perp pees? Oh, the humiliation. ;-)
I'm just thinking out loud here, not that I endorse torture. If you tell the enemies what the worst thing we might due to them will interrogating, how can we successfully interrogate? It would seem to me that they need to know that anything is possible otherwise why would they talk? Thank God for the people that hunt these bad hombres down and extract this info and if we take away their big sticks, how can they do their job? I'm just askin.
somehow right now I am picturing the Col. Jessup speech in A Few Good Men
Son, we live in a world that has walls that have to be guarded by men with guns. Whose gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinburg? I have more responsibility here than you could possibly fathom. You weep for Santiago, and you curse the Marines. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know. That Santiago's death the Iraq war, while tragic, probably saved lives. And that my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives. I know deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you don't want me on that wall, you need me on that wall. We use words like honor, code, loyalty. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom I provide, then question the manner in which I provide it. I prefer you said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon, and stand to post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to.
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“I never exaggerate. I just remember big.”—Chi Chi Rodriguez
Tim
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vitus979
Jul 3, 08 8:21
Post #24 of 34 (222 views)
Re: Hitchens undergoes waterboarding [last tri in 83]
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If you tell the enemies what the worst thing we might due to them will interrogating, how can we successfully interrogate?
It is done all the time.
Even if it was not, that justifies torture?
somehow right now I am picturing the Col. Jessup speech in A Few Good Men
And are you remembering that he was the villian in that movie?
"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
BarryP
Jul 3, 08 8:26
Post #25 of 34 (214 views)
Re: Hitchens undergoes waterboarding [vitus979]
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And are you remembering that he was the villian in that movie?
Classic! Awesome response Vitus! ; ^ )
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