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Given recent events, is this the kind of CIC you want?
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ajfranke
Aug 15, 08 5:46
Post #1 of 25 (381 views)
Given recent events, is this the kind of CIC you want?
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Per Obama:
http://www.youtube.com/...w.powerlineblog.com/
I will cut investments in unproven missile defense systems...
...I will not weaponize space...
...I will slow development of future combat systems...
...and I will institute a "Defense Priorities Board" to ensure the quadrennial defense review is not used to justify unnecessary spending...
...I will set a goal of a world without nuclear weapons...
...and to seek that goal, I will not develop nuclear weapons...
...I will seek a global ban on the development of fissile material...
...and I will negotiate with Russia to take our ICBMs off hair-trigger alert...
...and to achieve deep cuts in our nuclear arsenals...
How is that negotiation with Russia going, I wonder.
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This forum is going to be a place of civil discourse, and those who wish to foment hate and discord are no longer welcome here. -- slowman 11/8/04
Art Franke
David in FL
Aug 15, 08 6:00
Post #2 of 25 (365 views)
Re: Given recent events, is this the kind of CIC you want? [ajfranke]
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Irresponsible, in the extreme.
The scary thing is, he doesn't even understand
how or why
it's irresponsible.
"Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in a grey twilight that knows not victory nor defeat."
Theodore Roosevelt
ajfranke
Aug 15, 08 6:55
Post #3 of 25 (339 views)
Re: Given recent events, is this the kind of CIC you want? [David in FL]
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The scary thing is, he doesn't even understand
how or why
it's irresponsible.
I wouldn't bet on that. The only thing he cares about is manipulating issues and facts so as to get himself elected. How do you think he is doing so far?
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This forum is going to be a place of civil discourse, and those who wish to foment hate and discord are no longer welcome here. -- slowman 11/8/04
Art Franke
Andrewmc
Aug 15, 08 7:07
Post #4 of 25 (334 views)
Re: Given recent events, is this the kind of CIC you want? [ajfranke]
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I have to be honest and say that NEITHER of these two has proved to be particularly competent when it comes to foreign affairs. McCain has done nothing at all to dissuade me that he is as trigger happy as the current incumbents. Obama without a doubt will improve the US's relations with its allies, of that I have no doubt, but in terms of whether he would be a better leader internationally, that remains to be seen. To be fair though, you could elect Kermitt the Frogg at this point and improve your international standing but McCain will not do that for you as he is viewed rightly or wrongly as a continuation of Bush Cheney and I think the view outside the US is, to quote Einstein, the first sign of madness is to do the same thing twice and expect and different result, McCain will not be a different result.
The real problem that the US has is if one more front is opened up somewhere else in the world. Our own military is spread thin and were McCain in office and to suggest that we were to support the US on another front that would be likely to result in a change of government. People just wont buy it and the US can push the "ally" card only so far.
I think the US has used up a huge amount of its credit with us and other allies, and the concern is that McCain will want to go in to another war and I do not believe that we would or feasibly could support that.
ajfranke
Aug 15, 08 7:20
Post #5 of 25 (323 views)
Re: Given recent events, is this the kind of CIC you want? [Andrewmc]
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So when you say he will improve relations with our allies, what does that mean exactly? Will France and Germany send out 50,000 troops to help with Afghanistan? Will they cut off commercial transactions with Iran and other terrorist nations? Will British troops actually enter Basra without first asking permission from Sadr? Or will they just be happier with a soul mate in Washington that joins them in the hand ringing game saying all is lost, nothing we can do, at the first sign of difficulty?
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This forum is going to be a place of civil discourse, and those who wish to foment hate and discord are no longer welcome here. -- slowman 11/8/04
Art Franke
David in FL
Aug 15, 08 7:31
Post #6 of 25 (312 views)
Re: Given recent events, is this the kind of CIC you want? [ajfranke]
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I wouldn't bet on that. The only thing he cares about is manipulating issues and facts so as to get himself elected.
How do you think he is doing so far?
Honestly, not as well as I think that he, and a lot of the dems think that he is.
I think a lot of people are becoming sensitized to the tactic and are starting to see it for what it is, an insult to their intelligence.
"Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in a grey twilight that knows not victory nor defeat."
Theodore Roosevelt
Mike Lamb
Aug 15, 08 7:50
Post #7 of 25 (303 views)
Re: Given recent events, is this the kind of CIC you want? [ajfranke]
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Yes, it's absolutely terrible that he would cut funding to unproven (and I am assuming expensive) missile defense technologies.
Awful that he would want a world without nuclear weapons and that he would attempt to lead by example.
Terrible that he would try to get the Russians to stand down with regards to ICBMs.
Can't figure out why someone would want any of those things...
f/k/a mclamb6
bradword
Aug 15, 08 8:16
Post #8 of 25 (287 views)
Re: Given recent events, is this the kind of CIC you want? [Mike Lamb]
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Yes, it's absolutely terrible that he would cut funding to unproven (and I am assuming expensive) missile defense technologies.
Awful that he would want a world without nuclear weapons and that he would attempt to lead by example.
Terrible that he would try to get the Russians to stand down with regards to ICBMs.
Can't figure out why someone would want any of those things...
Typical answer. See the problem is that while this might sound great, so does hugging unicorns. Although warm and fuzzy, it's not realistic. We can't "lead by example" because unfortunately the North Koreas, Irans and China's of the world would have nukes and we wouldn't. That leaves us in a very bad position. Getting Russia and the USA to get off the hair triggers is a good idea, but good luck talking RUSSIA into that. This is the usual Obama dribble, let me say something that sounds all nice and fluffy, but who cares if its impossible and I actually have no PLAN on how to do it. It's all about hope i guess....
~Brad
Cavechild
Aug 15, 08 9:03
Post #9 of 25 (255 views)
Re: Given recent events, is this the kind of CIC you want? [Mike Lamb]
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Yes, it's absolutely terrible that he would cut funding to unproven (and I am assuming expensive) missile defense technologies.
But it's great that he's going to spend on unproven (and I guarantee expensive) alternative fuel technologies.
All these things are great ideas if we lived on Sesame Street. Unfortunately we don't and North Korea is not Oscar the Grouch.
last tri in 83
Aug 15, 08 9:10
Post #10 of 25 (250 views)
Re: Given recent events, is this the kind of CIC you want? [ajfranke]
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This is nothing new
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Z0VQ4vFwPU
_____________________________________________
Conservative in exile.
fitzie
Aug 15, 08 9:17
Post #11 of 25 (242 views)
Re: Given recent events, is this the kind of CIC you want? [ajfranke]
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"The only thing he cares about is manipulating issues and facts so as to get himself elected."
I thought that was how all politicians get elected. I am actually being serious.
"We thought that we had the answers, it was the questions we had wrong."
Bono
Mike Lamb
Aug 15, 08 9:18
Post #12 of 25 (240 views)
Re: Given recent events, is this the kind of CIC you want? [bradword]
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The bigger problem is NOT saying those things. You at least have to pay lip service to those statements, whether or not they are actually realized. Frankly, it would scare me if a candidate or President was not making similar statements, especially when tensions are rising. I mean should he have said "I want to increase the production of fissile materials" or "I do not want to engage Russia in an effort to have them stand down from their ICBMs"?
f/k/a mclamb6
Mike Lamb
Aug 15, 08 9:20
Post #13 of 25 (237 views)
Re: Given recent events, is this the kind of CIC you want? [Cavechild]
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While there would certainly be gov't funding of alternative fuels, there is a great deal of incentive for private industry to spend the money as the person/company that develops the technology will be filthy rich (which is why McCain's offer of a "prize" for battery development was a bit silly). You cannot say the same for missile defense technology. That is a pure gov't enterprise.
f/k/a mclamb6
ajfranke
Aug 15, 08 9:26
Post #14 of 25 (234 views)
Re: Given recent events, is this the kind of CIC you want? [last tri in 83]
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I am not seeing the comparison. Reagan's Peace through Strength message relates to Obama's disarmament message exactly how?
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This forum is going to be a place of civil discourse, and those who wish to foment hate and discord are no longer welcome here. -- slowman 11/8/04
Art Franke
David in FL
Aug 15, 08 9:38
Post #15 of 25 (222 views)
Re: Given recent events, is this the kind of CIC you want? [Mike Lamb]
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You cannot say the same for missile defense technology. That is a pure gov't enterprise.
Lockheed Martin, General Dynamics, Northrop Grumman, Raytheon, Hughes, TRW, et.al.......
Yep, pure government enterprises. No money to be made there.........
"Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in a grey twilight that knows not victory nor defeat."
Theodore Roosevelt
last tri in 83
Aug 15, 08 9:43
Post #16 of 25 (218 views)
Re: Given recent events, is this the kind of CIC you want? [ajfranke]
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Reagan had to run against Carter, who is a lot like BHO.
_____________________________________________
Conservative in exile.
Mike Lamb
Aug 15, 08 9:46
Post #17 of 25 (215 views)
Re: Given recent events, is this the kind of CIC you want? [David in FL]
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My point was that those companies will only get money on missile defense by selling it to the gov't, whereas alt. energy technologies as a much wider application. I didn't phrase it very well.
Edit: In other words, absent gov't funding I don't see where there would be incentive for military contractors to invest R&D in missile defense, while, generally speaking, there is a lot of incentive for private investment in R&D for alternative fuel.
f/k/a mclamb6
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vitus979
Aug 15, 08 9:51
Post #18 of 25 (211 views)
Re: Given recent events, is this the kind of CIC you want? [Mike Lamb]
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In other words, absent gov't funding I don't see where there would be incentive for military contractors to invest R&D in missile defense, while, generally speaking, there is a lot of incentive for private investment in R&D for alternative fuel.
I understand and don't necessarily disagree with that in the abstract. When you are talking about the government creating investment in alternative fuel, though, you've already abandoned the difference.
"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
ajfranke
Aug 15, 08 9:54
Post #19 of 25 (208 views)
Re: Given recent events, is this the kind of CIC you want? [last tri in 83]
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OK, that makes sense.
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This forum is going to be a place of civil discourse, and those who wish to foment hate and discord are no longer welcome here. -- slowman 11/8/04
Art Franke
last tri in 83
Aug 15, 08 9:57
Post #20 of 25 (203 views)
Re: Given recent events, is this the kind of CIC you want? [ajfranke]
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the more things change, the more they stay the same.
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Conservative in exile.
Mike Lamb
Aug 15, 08 10:06
Post #21 of 25 (195 views)
Re: Given recent events, is this the kind of CIC you want? [vitus979]
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I guess the question is whether the gov't is actually driving the R&D "market" in research into alt. energy or adding to an already large kitty of private investment? One of the complaints about McCain's battery offer was that it was ridiculously small versus the profit that would be realized if the battery was brought to market. Is the same comparison applicable to gov't funding of R&D vs. private investment into alternative energy?
Or to really get down to brass tacks...what are the actual expenditures for both? The only reason this was brought up was in response to a prior post in which Obama was chastised for stating he would cut spending to unproven missile defense (which I assumed to be expensive) but would continue funding for unproven alt energy (which the prior poster posited was very expensive). So are the dollar figures comparable?
f/k/a mclamb6
David in FL
Aug 15, 08 10:12
Post #22 of 25 (188 views)
Re: Given recent events, is this the kind of CIC you want? [Mike Lamb]
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You're saying that if there weren't a market for missile defense systems, there wouldn't be anyone producing missile defense systems?
Ok......I guess. Seems like you could say that about
any
product though.
"Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in a grey twilight that knows not victory nor defeat."
Theodore Roosevelt
vitus979
Aug 15, 08 10:13
Post #23 of 25 (187 views)
Re: Given recent events, is this the kind of CIC you want? [Mike Lamb]
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I guess the question is whether the gov't is actually driving the R&D "market" in research into alt. energy or adding to an already large kitty of private investment?
I believe Obama is running on the former idea, perhaps hoping that the latter develops. The former, basically.
So are the dollar figures comparable?
I don't know. I think that the other poster probably thinks the "unproven" part is the more significant similarity, though.
I don't have a dog in the fight. I think they're both expensive, they're both unproven but can reasonably expected to be successful, and I think both are worth a good deal of expense.
"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
fitzie
Aug 15, 08 10:23
Post #24 of 25 (177 views)
Re: Given recent events, is this the kind of CIC you want? [Mike Lamb]
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I just looked at the summary of the final 2008 defense budget and total RDT&E (research and development and test) dollars spent by DoD on all military systems in 2008 is budgeted for $75 Billion out of a total of $481 Billion.
If you really want the details here is the link. It is 188 pages.
http://www.defenselink.mil/...ary_tables_whole.pdf
"We thought that we had the answers, it was the questions we had wrong."
Bono
(This post was
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Al P Duez
Aug 15, 08 11:23
Post #25 of 25 (131 views)
Re: Given recent events, is this the kind of CIC you want? [Mike Lamb]
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"selling it to the gov't"
That is government's; FMS is very lucrative business for military contractors, and the US government.
"...lot of incentive for private investment in R&D for alternative fuel."
Hasn't happened heretofore in any appreciable terms, but may in the future.
Bottom line, both endeavors are worthwhile.
Obama's statements are ideological pie in the sky pap and other things that ryhme with pap, not to mention dangerous.
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