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Developing Alt Energy
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dave_w
Aug 15, 08 10:39
Post #1 of 29 (377 views)
Developing Alt Energy
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It hurts to pay at the pump, and higher prices for my other energy use, but part of me is giddy about it. I'm glad that costs finally affect most of us enough that we are willing to alter our behavior as consumers. It's a huge issue for national defense, as well as for the planet. My thoughts now run to what is the most effective way to get to effective alternative energy. I expect an increase in the things that we already know work(wind, solar), so my hopes are more along the lines of a replacement for petroleum as fuel for transport.
Soooo, where is our money best spent? The pubs seem to want to trust big oil with lots of money, and the dems are trying to funnel funds to American automakers. I don't trust either of these to do what is best for you and I. My best guess is that we'd be best served by funding universities, support and tap the young bright kids for innovation. Heck, we may get more real output from the foreign nationals before they go back home. :) Where should the vast sums of money that will inevitably go to innovation go?
"It's all about self-esteem"
vitus979
Aug 15, 08 10:44
Post #2 of 29 (370 views)
Re: Developing Alt Energy [dave_w]
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This isn't the answer you're looking for, but I think the very first thing we should do is invest heavily in nuclear power.
"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
fitzie
Aug 15, 08 10:57
Post #3 of 29 (361 views)
Re: Developing Alt Energy [vitus979]
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We need a comprehensive energy plan that includes nuclear and alternatives. I hate that I am going to say this, but maybe also do some offshore drilling.
The only thing that can help us right now? Conservation. Americans need to wake the fuck up and realize they are one of the main reason for higher gas prices.
We consume too much.
"We thought that we had the answers, it was the questions we had wrong."
Bono
sphere
Aug 15, 08 11:10
Post #4 of 29 (349 views)
Re: Developing Alt Energy [vitus979]
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the very first thing we should do is invest heavily in nuclear power.
Agreed.
I read an OpEd by Friedman the other day, and while it's fairly clear that the energy problem doesn't have a one-size-fits-all-nations solution, there are lessons to be learned here:
Flush With Energy
By
THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN
Copenhagen
The Arctic Hotel in Ilulissat, Greenland, is a charming little place on the West Coast, but no one would ever confuse it for a Four Seasons — maybe a One Seasons. But when my wife and I walked back to our room after dinner the other night and turned down our dim hallway, the hall light went on. It was triggered by an energy-saving motion detector. Our toilet even had two different flushing powers depending on — how do I say this delicately — what exactly you’re flushing. A two-gear toilet! I’ve never found any of this at an American hotel. Oh, if only we could be as energy efficient as Greenland!
A day later, I flew back to Denmark. After appointments here in Copenhagen, I was riding in a car back to my hotel at the 6 p.m. rush hour. And boy, you knew it was rush hour because 50 percent of the traffic in every intersection was bicycles. That is roughly the percentage of Danes who use two-wheelers to go to and from work or school every day here. If I lived in a city that had dedicated bike lanes everywhere, including one to the airport, I’d go to work that way, too. It means less traffic, less pollution and less obesity.
What was most impressive about this day, though, was that it was raining. No matter. The Danes simply donned rain jackets and pants for biking. If only we could be as energy smart as Denmark!
Unlike America, Denmark, which was so badly hammered by the 1973 Arab oil embargo that it banned all Sunday driving for a while, responded to that crisis in such a sustained, focused and systematic way that today it is energy independent. (And it didn’t happen by Danish politicians making their people stupid by telling them the solution was simply more offshore drilling.)
What was the trick? To be sure, Denmark is much smaller than us and was lucky to discover some oil in the North Sea. But despite that, Danes imposed on themselves a set of gasoline taxes, CO2 taxes and building-and-appliance efficiency standards that allowed them to grow their economy — while barely growing their energy consumption — and gave birth to a Danish clean-power industry that is one of the most competitive in the world today. Denmark today gets nearly 20 percent of its electricity from wind. America? About 1 percent.
And did Danes suffer from their government shaping the market with energy taxes to stimulate innovations in clean power? In one word, said Connie Hedegaard, Denmark’s minister of climate and energy: “No.” It just forced them to innovate more — like the way Danes recycle waste heat from their coal-fired power plants and use it for home heating and hot water, or the way they incinerate their trash in central stations to provide home heating. (There are virtually no landfills here.)
There is little whining here about Denmark having $10-a-gallon gasoline because of high energy taxes. The shaping of the market with high energy standards and taxes on fossil fuels by the Danish government has actually had “a positive impact on job creation,” added Hedegaard. “For example, the wind industry — it was nothing in the 1970s. Today, one-third of all terrestrial wind turbines in the world come from Denmark.” In the last 10 years, Denmark’s exports of energy efficiency products have tripled. Energy technology exports rose 8 percent in 2007 to more than $10.5 billion in 2006, compared with a 2 percent rise in 2007 for Danish exports as a whole.
“It is one of our fastest-growing export areas,” said Hedegaard. It is one reason that unemployment in Denmark today is 1.6 percent. In 1973, said Hedegaard, “we got 99 percent of our energy from the Middle East. Today it is zero.”
Frankly, when you compare how America has responded to the 1973 oil shock and how Denmark has responded, we look pathetic.
“I have observed that in all other countries, including in America, people are complaining about how prices of [gasoline] are going up,” Denmark’s prime minister, Anders Fogh Rasmussen, told me. “The cure is not to reduce the price, but, on the contrary, to raise it even higher to break our addiction to oil. We are going to introduce a new tax reform in the direction of even higher taxation on energy and the revenue generated on that will be used to cut taxes on personal income — so we will improve incentives to work and improve incentives to save energy and develop renewable energy.”
Because it was smart taxes and incentives that spurred Danish energy companies to innovate, Ditlev Engel, the president of Vestas — Denmark’s and the world’s biggest wind turbine company — told me that he simply can’t understand how the U.S. Congress could have just failed to extend the production tax credits for wind development in America.
Why should you care?
“We’ve had 35 new competitors coming out of China in the last 18 months,” said Engel, “and not one out of the U.S.”
"The nice part about being a pessimist is that you are constantly being either proven right or pleasantly surprised." - George F. Will
Al P Duez
Aug 15, 08 11:29
Post #5 of 29 (335 views)
Re: Developing Alt Energy [fitzie]
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"Americans need to wake the fuck up and realize they are one of the main reason for higher gas prices."
Looks as if the bear has awoken. The Energy Department has reported the steepest drop in oil consumption in more than a quarter century. The slowdown in U.S. energy use is one of the major factors pulling crude oil prices down from their historic highs of a month ago.
Let's hope we stay awake.
matti58
Aug 15, 08 12:02
Post #6 of 29 (307 views)
Re: Developing Alt Energy [dave_w]
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"
we'd be best served by funding universities, support and tap the young bright kids for innovation."
I agree! I work at a university doing bioproducts research....more grant money=more job stability for me :)
triblaq
Aug 15, 08 12:50
Post #7 of 29 (286 views)
Re: Developing Alt Energy [sphere]
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In Reply To
Flush With Energy
By
THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN
--snip--
What was the trick? To be sure, Denmark is much smaller than us and was lucky to discover some oil in the North Sea. But despite that,
Danes imposed on themselves a set of gasoline taxes, CO2 taxes
and building-and-appliance efficiency standards that allowed them to grow their economy — while barely growing their energy consumption — and gave birth to a Danish clean-power industry that is one of the most competitive in the world today. Denmark today gets nearly 20 percent of its electricity from wind. America? About 1 percent.
And did Danes suffer from their government shaping the market with energy taxes to stimulate innovations in clean power?
In one word, said Connie Hedegaard, Denmark’s minister of climate and energy: “No.” It just forced them to innovate more — like the way Danes recycle waste heat from their coal-fired power plants and use it for home heating and hot water, or the way they incinerate their trash in central stations to provide home heating. (There are virtually no landfills here.)
--snip--
Interesting article. Can anyone explain to me how the the statements above agree? Doesn't a set of gasoline and CO2 taxes basically equate to the government stimulating innovations in clean power?
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"All men should strive to learn before they die what they are running from, and to, and why." - James Thurber
vitus979
Aug 15, 08 12:57
Post #8 of 29 (281 views)
Re: Developing Alt Energy [triblaq]
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Doesn't a set of gasoline and CO2 taxes basically equate to the government stimulating innovations in clean power?
Yes. The statements say that the Danes imposed the taxes, and therefore shaped the market by stimulating innovations, but that they didn't suffer from it.
"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
triblaq
Aug 15, 08 13:03
Post #9 of 29 (275 views)
Re: Developing Alt Energy [vitus979]
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Yes. The statements say that the Danes imposed the taxes, and therefore shaped the market by stimulating innovations, but that they didn't suffer from it.
Thank you. Makes sense now. My reading comprehension skills are out of whack today.
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"All men should strive to learn before they die what they are running from, and to, and why." - James Thurber
ajfranke
Aug 15, 08 13:04
Post #10 of 29 (272 views)
Re: Developing Alt Energy [triblaq]
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That isn't a contradiction at all, but this is:
And it didn’t happen by Danish politicians making their people stupid by telling them the solution was simply more offshore drilling.
What was the trick? To be sure, Denmark is much smaller than us and was lucky to discover some oil in the North Sea.
So what they actually did was do offshore drilling in order to drill their way out of the problem as part of the solution. Looks like they went for an all of the above solution. Where are we hearing that today?
Did I miss the part about inflating tires and tuning engines?
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This forum is going to be a place of civil discourse, and those who wish to foment hate and discord are no longer welcome here. -- slowman 11/8/04
Art Franke
peter826
Aug 15, 08 13:15
Post #11 of 29 (264 views)
Re: Developing Alt Energy [dave_w]
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Invest in wind and solar, and plug-in hybrid cars. All of this technology exists today, and is cost-competitive in some areas. We don't have to wait many years for the potential hydrogen economy to come online, we can do this now.
I disagree with the idea of investing heavily in nuclear. It's too problematic. The fuel is scare and requires incredible amounts of energy to mine. We still have no plan for dealing with the waste, which is sitting in cooling ponds all over the country. Costs of new nuclear plants have been projected to be $9-12 billion apiece, as the materials costs alone for copper, concrete, etc, have skyrocketed. The eventual NIMBYism that will go with the projected plants will force them into years of protracted court battles that will keep any progress from being made.
A 1500MW nuke is projected to cost roughly $9-$10 billion. The same capacity in wind is somewhere around $3.7 billion (costs are dropping, but $2.5 million/megawatt seems average for what I found). The wind has no ongoing fuel cost nor waste disposal costs.
vitus979
Aug 15, 08 13:20
Post #12 of 29 (258 views)
Re: Developing Alt Energy [peter826]
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Oh, come on. The French are all nuclear, and if the froggies do it, it must be forward thinking.
Seriously, the problems with nuclear just aren't that big. And it's the only technology that looks to actually capable of providing the bulk of our energy needs.
"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
peter826
Aug 15, 08 13:27
Post #13 of 29 (254 views)
Re: Developing Alt Energy [vitus979]
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Pretty sure the French system is nationalized, a bit different of an animal.
I've been an advocate for more reliance on nuclear in years past (even here in the LR), but the more I read about wind, the more I think it's a better solution.
Ultimately I think we end up with a vast array of energy sources, nuclear still being in the mix.
It will be interesting to see if the proposed nukes with permits already submitted will be built. Will the Wall Street types want to finance them?
vitus979
Aug 15, 08 13:37
Post #14 of 29 (248 views)
Re: Developing Alt Energy [peter826]
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the French system is nationalized
Whether it's nationalized or not, it keeps the lightbulbs burning.
Ultimately I think we end up with a vast array of energy sources, nuclear still being in the mix.
Yeah. I'm not saying that it should be our only energy source, but I see things like wind and solar as supplemental, at best.
It will be interesting to see if the proposed nukes with permits already submitted will be built. Will the Wall Street types want to finance them?
I don't know- the Wall Street types haven't seemed too keen on investing in any of these alternatives to heavily so far. My superficial knowledge of this particular issue leads me to believe that private money abandoned nuclear plants because it's cheaper right now to build coal-powered plants. (In addition to regulatory issues, NIMBYism, etc etc) Those are obstacles to nuclear that need to be removed, and can be, easily.
"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
dave_w
Aug 15, 08 14:17
Post #15 of 29 (236 views)
Re: Developing Alt Energy [peter826]
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Pretty sure the French system is nationalized, a bit different of an animal.
I've been an advocate for more reliance on nuclear in years past (even here in the LR), but the more I read about wind, the more I think it's a better solution.
Ultimately I think we end up with a vast array of energy sources, nuclear still being in the mix.
It will be interesting to see if the proposed nukes with permits already submitted will be built. Will the Wall Street types want to finance them?
Hey, Nancy Pelosi agrees with you, and puts her money where her mouth is! She's invested in Pickens' Clean Energy Fuels Corp. Not sure if I have a problem with that, but it does make one wonder if she works very hard to prevent new drilling, and push only toward the technology that will benefit her portfolio.
"It's all about self-esteem"
peter826
Aug 15, 08 14:31
Post #16 of 29 (229 views)
Re: Developing Alt Energy [dave_w]
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I don't know much about Pelosi's positions other than that she doesn't want offshore drilling. I agree with Pickens regarding adding wind capacity. OTOH, I disagree with Pickens plan to move toward natural gas vehicles -- I see no reason to build an entire new infrastructure to power transportation using natural gas when we already have the infrastructure for plug-in hybrids. Gas is great for heating and ideal for peaker plants that can supplement wind and solar. We only have something like 3% of the world's proven resources of gas, and the price has already surged the last few years.
dave_w
Aug 15, 08 14:44
Post #17 of 29 (220 views)
Re: Developing Alt Energy [peter826]
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We all have an interest here, and I like the Pickens plan, at least on it's face. What I wonder about is having those who actually control the decisions having such a financial interest in one tact or another "winning".
_________________________________________________
Which brings us to Madame Speakers 2007 financial disclosure form. Schedule III lists Assets and Unearned Income of between $100,001-$250,000 from Clean Energy Fuels Corp. Public Common Stock. Clean Energy Fuels Corp. (CLNE) is a natural gas provider founded by T. Boone Pickens. Yep, that T. Boone Pickens former oilman turned wind-power evangelist whose ads touting a national wind campaign are now as ubiquitous as Viagra promos.
Pickens and Pelosi share the same talking points downplaying the need to drill and open up more access to American oil.
"It's all about self-esteem"
ajfranke
Aug 15, 08 15:33
Post #18 of 29 (212 views)
Re: Developing Alt Energy [dave_w]
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Pelosi's husband is beyond loaded. If you think that constitutes a conflict of interest, you haven't looked at her financial picture.
Not to defend Pelosi on this matter, but that is chump change.
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This forum is going to be a place of civil discourse, and those who wish to foment hate and discord are no longer welcome here. -- slowman 11/8/04
Art Franke
Ttown
Aug 15, 08 18:08
Post #19 of 29 (196 views)
Re: Developing Alt Energy [ajfranke]
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And those found reserves have allowed them to pay lower prices at home than globally?
(This post was
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by Ttown on Aug 15, 08 18:09)
ajfranke
Aug 15, 08 18:11
Post #20 of 29 (194 views)
Re: Developing Alt Energy [Ttown]
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From the point of view of the individual consumer, no since gas is extremely heavily taxed.
I don't really get your point.
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This forum is going to be a place of civil discourse, and those who wish to foment hate and discord are no longer welcome here. -- slowman 11/8/04
Art Franke
Ttown
Aug 15, 08 18:42
Post #21 of 29 (185 views)
Re: Developing Alt Energy [ajfranke]
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I am not talking about gasoline. Did the North Sea oil find (by the way, first found in 1942 but did not produce until early 80s) have any impact on current prices?
ajfranke
Aug 16, 08 4:01
Post #22 of 29 (166 views)
Re: Developing Alt Energy [Ttown]
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Please refer to your Econ 101 textbook for the answer.
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This forum is going to be a place of civil discourse, and those who wish to foment hate and discord are no longer welcome here. -- slowman 11/8/04
Art Franke
Ttown
Aug 16, 08 4:52
Post #23 of 29 (161 views)
Re: Developing Alt Energy [ajfranke]
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The answer is and was no as econ 201 mirco will show. Suppliers that are not price makers and not low cost producers cannot affetc prices with new supply, price makers and low cost producers will and have cut supply to maintain the price of oil. Oil is supply inelastic due to a lack of substitution for oil. The global system of taxation and subsidies also distorts true economic prices (not future prices).
The Danes, and in fact any oil poor nation like Japan, started policy to discourage petrol use when prices were low. They are also not just focused on oil, e.g. they discourage car use via 150% to 200% taxes on auto use.
Drilling for more hydrocarbons is good with hi success probabilities (oil shale or Alaska) where the oil weights (APIsystem) and lower transportation differentials will benefit the US. Drilling for it in the OCS is of questionable value given the history of dry holes and propensity for gas.
ajfranke
Aug 16, 08 7:48
Post #24 of 29 (150 views)
Re: Developing Alt Energy [Ttown]
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A simple glance at the historical price of oil should be sufficient to disabuse you of the notion that large or low cost suppliers simply cut production to maintain prices. There are large and long drops in oil prices historically.
You can argue all day that supply and demand doesn't apply to the oil markets. Even the last month, if not the last 40 years, is more than enough to prove you wrong.
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This forum is going to be a place of civil discourse, and those who wish to foment hate and discord are no longer welcome here. -- slowman 11/8/04
Art Franke
Jagerstar
Aug 16, 08 8:31
Post #25 of 29 (97 views)
Re: Developing Alt Energy [matti58]
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"
we'd be best served by funding universities, support and tap the young bright kids for innovation."
I agree! I work at a university doing bioproducts research....more grant money=more job stability for me :)
Agreed mostly because I work in biofuel research (got algae?) and the money wouldn't hurt, although the rest of the US is starting to catch up, and we are getting grants and funds a lot more than usual.
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