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America's aging infrastructure: "The Cracks are Showing"
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fitzie
Jul 1, 08 7:15
Post #1 of 33 (403 views)
America's aging infrastructure: "The Cracks are Showing"
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From The Economist on-line:
"THE Mississippi River pushed relentlessly past dozens of levees this month. Towns were submerged, their buildings tiny islands in murky water. Ducks paddled on ponds that had once been farmland. Some flooding was inevitable, given the force of the swollen Mississippi. But a poorly managed flood-defence system did not help.
For the past few years it has been hard to ignore America’s crumbling infrastructure, from the devastating breach of New Orleans’s levees after Hurricane Katrina to the collapse of a big bridge in Minneapolis last summer. In 2005 the American Society of Civil Engineers estimated that $1.6 trillion was needed over five years to bring just the existing infrastructure into good repair. This does not account for future needs. By 2020 freight volumes are projected to be 70% greater than in 1998. By 2050 America’s population is expected to reach 420m, 50% more than in 2000. Much of this growth will take place in metropolitan areas, where the infrastructure is already run down."
Like we don't have enough problems already.
http://www.economist.com/...fm?story_id=11636517
"then you come to Killer Miller, and uhm, well sorry".
kny (Kyle) architect of the Savageman course.
tim-mech
Jul 1, 08 7:27
Post #2 of 33 (378 views)
Re: America's aging infrastructure: "The Cracks are Showing" [fitzie]
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Not to worry; the "free market" will save us.
Taxes=eeee-vile! Why can't we have all this essential stuff and not have to pay for it :-(
It can easily be seen that TOLL levees, rails, bridges, roads, drinking fountains, parks, bike trails (you name it!) are the answer here.
Tim
#########################################
"Show me a guy who works to keep his family together, spends time with his kids, dates his wife, and compromises on his training sessions....I'll show a guy who's family is important to them." -MJuric
"Corrective action is blocked by vested interests, by well-intentioned political and business leaders, and by their electorates, all of whom are perfectly correct in not noticing big changes from year to year. Instead, each year there are just somewhat more people, and somewhat fewer resources, on Earth."-Jared Diamond
MJuric
Jul 1, 08 7:39
Post #3 of 33 (370 views)
Re: America's aging infrastructure: "The Cracks are Showing" [tim-mech]
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The nicest bridge we have in the area...is a toll bridge. The best maintained most modern roads we have in the area...toll roads. I'll concede that not all things lend themselves to a free market, but I also believe WAY to many things are not free market.
Makes no sense to collect taxes, and then send .80$ of every dollar collected for a project to people it was collected for when you can give that dollar directly to that company(ies).
If roads where all along the lines of the toll roads it would then be up to the consumer to travel the "Best roads for the price". If the road falls into disrepair and there's a better alternative for same price, they would take that one.
Highways are a no brainer in this sense with open road tolling. In town is a bit more of an issue but I'm guessing some "in town open road tolling" could be devised somehow.
Parks, railroads etc all pretty much the same thing. Pay for admission. I'm guessing we'd end up with fewer parks but all the better quality ones that people would respect when they're their rather than all the run down pieces of crap we currently have that end up broken and full of trash.
~Matt
TwinDad
Jul 1, 08 7:55
Post #4 of 33 (356 views)
Re: America's aging infrastructure: "The Cracks are Showing" [MJuric]
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Actually, that's not a terribly bad idea. It reminds me that I pay extra every month specifically to have access to the YMCA, but generally eschew our "free" local public parks/pools. It's at least partly because paying the dues each month reminds me that I'm "wasting" that money if I don't go... while I don't have that visibility to the same "waste" for the "free" park.
I'd at least be in favor of some itemization of our taxes... so I could see that I was paying XX$/year for the parks, and I could treat it like a "gym membership". It would allow some transparency toward government funding/earmarking, etc. as well.
This would never fly with politicians, though.
There's something seriously nagging me about the regressive nature of a road/park/whatever toll system vs. pooling tax money to pay for it...
... but there's probably some sort of middle ground here...
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bcart1991
Jul 1, 08 7:56
Post #5 of 33 (352 views)
Re: America's aging infrastructure: "The Cracks are Showing" [MJuric]
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You can lay some of the blame at the door of the Robert R. Byrd Center for Everything. I.e. pork projects taking up too much tax money.
__________________________________________________
Kotter
tri_bri2
Jul 1, 08 8:00
Post #6 of 33 (347 views)
Re: America's aging infrastructure: "The Cracks are Showing" [fitzie]
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"For the past few years it has been hard to ignore America’s crumbling infrastructure, from the devastating breach of New Orleans’s levees after Hurricane Katrina to
the collapse of a big bridge in Minneapolis last summer
."
I can't believe this debunked myth is still being foisted on the American public. The Minneapolis bridge did not collapse from age or lack of maintenance. It collapsed due to faulty original construction and the fact that it was being resurfaced and was overloaded with construction materials.
(This post was
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BarryP
Jul 1, 08 8:14
Post #7 of 33 (330 views)
Re: America's aging infrastructure: "The Cracks are Showing" [MJuric]
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How do you put a toll on a levee?
______________________________________________
-Barry Pollock (aka Baron Von Speedypants)
-Running Coach
RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
or you can search Runtraining## where ## is a number from 1-16.
MJuric
Jul 1, 08 8:28
Post #8 of 33 (317 views)
Re: America's aging infrastructure: "The Cracks are Showing" [BarryP]
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I did mention "not all things lend themselves to "market". OTOH instead of building levee's, doesn't it makes sense to build your house somewhere else? I'm not sure why everyone has to pay taxes, supplement flood insurance, pay for clean up etc...because someone wants to live on a river....but I digress. We aren't talking about moving people from their homeland, just moving them off the flood plain.
~Matt
MJuric
Jul 1, 08 8:31
Post #9 of 33 (317 views)
Re: America's aging infrastructure: "The Cracks are Showing" [TwinDad]
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Even if it's not a "Pay per park" issue. Maybe people buy an annual park membership just like you do to a zoo. It would be up to the "Park district" as to which park(s) are most well attended and least expensive to maintain and go from there.
~Matt
MJuric
Jul 1, 08 8:32
Post #10 of 33 (317 views)
Re: America's aging infrastructure: "The Cracks are Showing" [tri_bri2]
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Come on, let's not let the facts get in the way :-)
~Matt
MattinSF
Jul 1, 08 8:54
Post #11 of 33 (298 views)
Re: America's aging infrastructure: "The Cracks are Showing" [BarryP]
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In Reply To
How do you put a toll on a levee?
If you live in the flood plain behind it you pay a fee. If the river it corrals supplies your water you pay a fee.
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ajfranke
BarryP
Jul 1, 08 9:13
Post #12 of 33 (290 views)
Re: America's aging infrastructure: "The Cracks are Showing" [MattinSF]
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If you live in the flood plain behind it you pay a fee. If the river it corrals supplies your water you pay a fee.
Do you also pay a fee if the river it corals allows ships to pass back and forth carrying all sorts of goods?
Maybe we should go back to having tolls and insurance cover everything? House on fire? Pay a fee. Someone break into your house? Hope he doesn't steal any money, because how are you going to pay the police? I'm still waiting for all those who supported the invasion of Iraq to come up with the money to pay for it.
______________________________________________
-Barry Pollock (aka Baron Von Speedypants)
-Running Coach
RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
or you can search Runtraining## where ## is a number from 1-16.
TwinDad
Jul 1, 08 10:08
Post #13 of 33 (267 views)
Re: America's aging infrastructure: "The Cracks are Showing" [MJuric]
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In Reply To
Even if it's not a "Pay per park" issue. Maybe people buy an annual park membership just like you do to a zoo. It would be up to the "Park district" as to which park(s) are most well attended and least expensive to maintain and go from there.
~Matt
Yeah, that makes sense... an annual fee that got you access to all the parks in the town, while the P&R department could then take the pooled fee money to spend where needed... Just like my "citywide" Y membership gets me access to all the Y's facilities across town.
You'd still probably need to work out a way to handle folks who can't afford the fee. The Y does this with some system of prorating their dues... I'm sure the city could do the same or similar.
Heck, I'd even be OK if the taxes stayed the same as they are, but it was more transparent how much is going toward the parks / roads / whatever. Fat chance that will ever happen.
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(This post was
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MJuric
Jul 1, 08 10:27
Post #14 of 33 (257 views)
Re: America's aging infrastructure: "The Cracks are Showing" [BarryP]
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Maybe we should go back to having tolls and insurance cover everything? House on fire? Pay a fee.
In essence aren't we already doing that? We pay taxes, that's a fee is it not. The difference is that instead of that "Fee" being a nebulous "X" percentage of your check that someone else decides how to use, it's a "Fee" that you pay directly to the company for something you want to use.
Again all things don't efficiently lend itself to such mechanics. Things that have a "Greater good" and a wide variety of benefits to different groups are had to quantify as far as "users" and "Providers". Defense is one of those, some infrastructure and one could argue that education also falls in this category.
Parks, roads, etc are pretty easy to quantify...if you're in the park or on the road you are "using it" and thus should be paying for it.
~Matt
MJuric
Jul 1, 08 10:35
Post #15 of 33 (250 views)
Re: America's aging infrastructure: "The Cracks are Showing" [TwinDad]
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Heck, I'd even be OK if the taxes stayed the same as they are, but it was more transparent how much is going toward the parks / roads / whatever. Fat chance that will ever happen.
In a sense you can see "where your taxes are going" by simply pulling up a budget. The problem, as I see it anyway, is that there is very little input from the "User" on how the money is to be spent. Often times, again in my experience, government is all about "Equality" rather than providing the best product to those that need it or want it the most. The government would be concerned about the likely hood that certain sectors might not have the same access to "parks" that other would, despite the fact that those sectors that would not have access have no desire to have access.
Businesses are much better overall at providing the best solution to keep their customers happy. Yes this does allow some to fall thru the cracks and some don't have access, but also as you mention there are ways to deal with this as well.
I'd be happy to pay a "Park Fee", in essence I do via property taxes, but have that be a membership fee. I would also be happy to pay a bit more to allow those that TRULY can't afford it access to those parks. As you stated the "Y" does a good job with this and is probably a decent model to follow. I can actually get into any Y across the country with my "Y" card. In fact, when I was actually racing, I used to find out where the local "Y" was. I'd race, go shower, come back for the finishers, awards etc.
~Matt
slowbern
Jul 1, 08 10:41
Post #16 of 33 (244 views)
Re: America's aging infrastructure: "The Cracks are Showing" [BarryP]
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House on fire? Pay a fee. Someone break into your house? Hope he doesn't steal any money, because how are you going to pay the police?
Unfortunately that is already happening in many cities. Most people don't feel it or know it because insurance picks up the tab.
Bernie
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"Hold on one second, sweetie."-Barack Obama
BarryP
Jul 1, 08 10:54
Post #17 of 33 (236 views)
Re: America's aging infrastructure: "The Cracks are Showing" [MJuric]
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The difference is that instead of that "Fee" being a nebulous "X" percentage of your check that someone else decides how to use, it's a "Fee" that you pay directly to the company for something you want to use.
So you think that instead of having a police department that is supported by taxes, instead it should be run like a profitable business. If their's been dangerous activity on your street lately, then someone on your street better decide to hire the police. If speeding is a problem on a certain highway and a patrol car needs to sit there to slow motorists down, should someone hire them directly, or do we set up a toll where you have to slow down and drop a quarter in a box in front of the patrol car. If poor people want these services..well.....too bad.
______________________________________________
-Barry Pollock (aka Baron Von Speedypants)
-Running Coach
RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
or you can search Runtraining## where ## is a number from 1-16.
TwinDad
Jul 1, 08 10:55
Post #18 of 33 (236 views)
Re: America's aging infrastructure: "The Cracks are Showing" [MJuric]
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While I agree with you in general about business handling things more efficiently than government, I'm not sure that works very well with, shall we say, less than economical use of property... how long would it take for Central Park to get paved if the city (I presume) weren't holding the title to the property and requiring it be used as a park?
This seems to be a case where we need either (a) government / business cooperation (govt holds title and subcontracts management to a company), or simply (b) government handling the funding of things in a more businesslike way (i.e. direct fees for service or line items in tax bills)... I fear I'm not really expressing my thoughts clearly.
I just checked the most recent budget document for my town I could find (FY 2005). Parks & Rec was $16M out of $220M. I had to pick that out of two widely separated pages from a 21 MB PDF document. Not exactly obvious.
Based on my city income tax bill, that means I pay about $145 / year for Parks & Rec. That's not a bad deal, for what I have access to. It's already pay-graded in that the city taxes are a flat % of income (which means they're also regressive!). Most of the "premium" facilities (golf courses and swimming pools) also have at-the-gate fees, but these are lower than comparable commercial fees (e.g. private golf courses or pools). By comparison, it looks like I pay just over $1K / year for "public safety" (police, fire, code enforcement, etc.). This is the largest top level item in the city budget.
I'd love to get an annual budget summary from the city with a pie chart or two showing that I'm paying $145/yr for parks, $300/yr for this, $750/yr for that, and $500/yr for the other. It could be a single page, and the numbers could be %'s so that it's a mass mailing instead of individualized.
You know what, I've got a friend who's running for city council this year. I think I'm going to suggest it to him as a platform item. I'll probably tell my councilman as well (I'm not in my friend's district).
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Tridiot
Jul 1, 08 10:56
Post #19 of 33 (235 views)
Re: America's aging infrastructure: "The Cracks are Showing" [MJuric]
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Either the concept or the execution of what you are talking about sounds nearly identical to taxes. I'm having a hard time seeing the difference.
You already covered you know where your taxes go if you pull up a budget (especially if you live in a township/city, but same effect in a county, less so in a state or with the fed).
Users directly provide input on how the money is spent, we live in a representative form of government, so you directly elect those that make those decisions. Sometimes those decisions are made by staffers, but almost always are made based on decisions of best public use/interest.
Businesses tend to be better are keeping customers happy in a well defined area, which does not include the absolutely necessary public infrastructure that helps the nation/community run. So while I appreciate that people love the concept of businesses being more efficient than the government, there are many examples of how that is not true, or how it is not practical (though there are obviously a lot of examples of how that is good).
Look at the recent response in the market place to new standards from TSA on computer bags. We have a clearly defined government role of ensuring national and air travel passenger safety. They set policies to implement this role, and the market place reacts (new fancy bags that we can keep our laptops in, because, you know, it was horrific to have to take the computer out of the bag).
Yours is a good point about "equality", but when you are facing a diverse constituency, "best" is never ever clear cut.
fitzie
Jul 1, 08 11:10
Post #20 of 33 (230 views)
Re: America's aging infrastructure: "The Cracks are Showing" [tri_bri2]
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I guess even The Economist can get something wrong once in a while.
It seems most agree that if you drive on roads, use parks or live in a flood plain than you should have to pay some type of fee, tax or insurance. Some think it's best to privatize while others say it's up to the government.
The bottom line: What we are currently doing for our infrastructure (or not doing) is a huge issue for the near future. When do we finally start tackling big problems like this instead of continuing to pass them to the next President, Administration or Congress? When do we start to fix what is broke?
"then you come to Killer Miller, and uhm, well sorry".
kny (Kyle) architect of the Savageman course.
MJuric
Jul 1, 08 11:14
Post #21 of 33 (225 views)
Re: America's aging infrastructure: "The Cracks are Showing" [TwinDad]
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how long would it take for Central Park to get paved if the city (I presume) weren't holding the title to the property and requiring it be used as a park?
Well, let's assume that a law is in place that doesn't allow the land to be used for anything else other than it's intended purpose. I'd say it would stick better than the same law would for the city. Take Mayor Daley for example building a Children's museum in Grants Park. Had that same law been in place and a private entity tried to build a museum there it wouldn't have gone as far as it has so far.
In essence I agree "Private" companies need to be regulated to a point. Give a company a prime piece of real estate and no rules and they make as much money off of it as they can. Give a "Contract" to a company on being stewards of the park and they will likely do a better job and make better decisions than the city for less.
Based on my city income tax bill, that means I pay about $145 / year for Parks & Rec
.
Thanks god I don't live in NY :-)
~Matt
TwinDad
Jul 1, 08 11:19
Post #22 of 33 (220 views)
Re: America's aging infrastructure: "The Cracks are Showing" [MJuric]
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I think we're in general agreement here. I like your second paragraph. I'm not sure this model can be applied to *all* areas that government supplies (police, fire, and military are perhaps obvious examples), but it's likely a decent model for things like P&R. I'm also a bit dubious about roads, but perhaps it'd work there as well.
Two (minor) points.
First, I live in flyover country, not NYC. Central Park was just a convenient, glaringly obvious case of a park that is sitting on land that's probably worth billions if it were allowed to be "developed."
Second, don't get me started on Mayor Daley. I'm still steamed at him for bulldozing Meigs Field. But I don't live in Chicago either, so what can I do?
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tim-mech
Jul 1, 08 11:19
Post #23 of 33 (219 views)
Re: America's aging infrastructure: "The Cracks are Showing" [fitzie]
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"When do we finally start tackling big problems like this instead of continuing to pass them to the next President, Administration or Congress? When do we start to fix what is broke?"
Ah yes, the eternal question. Well, the answer of course is a really smart leader who is also a superb communicator. Hmmm...who could that be???!
OHHHHHHHHH-BAMA! Go BAMA, Go BAMA, GO GO GO BAMA!!! (to the funky sound of some MoTown groove; wait, is that racist?)
Tim
#########################################
"Show me a guy who works to keep his family together, spends time with his kids, dates his wife, and compromises on his training sessions....I'll show a guy who's family is important to them." -MJuric
"Corrective action is blocked by vested interests, by well-intentioned political and business leaders, and by their electorates, all of whom are perfectly correct in not noticing big changes from year to year. Instead, each year there are just somewhat more people, and somewhat fewer resources, on Earth."-Jared Diamond
MJuric
Jul 1, 08 11:23
Post #24 of 33 (214 views)
Re: America's aging infrastructure: "The Cracks are Showing" [Tridiot]
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Sometimes those decisions are made by staffers, but almost always are made based on decisions of best public use/interest.
I think there is a very real difference in the way a private company comes to a decision of "Best public interest" and the way a government does. In politics "Best public interest" involves campaign money, political favors, equal access and finally votes. In business it's usually votes first via the dollars spent. These dollars end up influencing everything else much more so than in government.
Businesses tend to be better are keeping customers happy in a well defined area, which does not include the absolutely necessary public infrastructure that helps the nation/community run. So while I appreciate that people love the concept of businesses being more efficient than the government, there are many examples of how that is not true, or how it is not practical (though there are obviously a lot of examples of how that is good).
I don't disagree with this at all and have stated as much. I think the difference in opinion often lies on "How well defined" the area has to be in order for a business model to outperform a governmental model.
Personally I believe we have widened the area far to large for the governmental model assuming government will outperform business in many area's that it really isn't and won't. Maybe on purpose, maybe by default, IMHO government is running many things that it simply isn't well suited for.
~Matt
MJuric
Jul 1, 08 11:28
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Re: America's aging infrastructure: "The Cracks are Showing" [BarryP]
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What part of "some things don't lend itself well to markets" do you not understand.
Barry, obviously you're a bright individual, instead of looking for points to argue maybe more benefit would come from figuring out potential solutions.
So far I have mentioned Parks and Roads as things that might be well suited for semi private or privatized operation. I've mentioned Toll roads as well as admittance or "Park membership". I have not mentioned levies, police or military and have so much as insinuated that levies and military DON'T lend themselves to privatization IMHO.
If you would like a list of other things I think might work as a privatized entities, just ask...it's pretty easy.
~Matt
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